Why Bother?

Am I just wasting my time?

If I want to write an "Elite" clone, should I just MOD Home-world?
If I want to write a new Civilisation clone, should I just MOD, well... Civilisation iv?
If I want to write a new squad combat game, should I just Mod, WH4000AD?
If I want to write a new FPS, should I just Mod Doom?

Or should I write them in BMAX.

Hand on heart if I worked every hour under the sun, I couldn't produce anything as good as the above in what the each of the above are good at.

So why do I try.

Am I chasing an impossible dream. Or worse have I set myself an impossible goal, one that I need not stride for, because I know that I would fail?

Comments appreciated

I find it more fun to create my own framework rather then take an existing one and just add new media/tweak some settings.

Learn the hardships the originals had to partake to create what they became (well, probably less so since they're normally coded in C++).....

Not to mention if you wanted to sell said mod in the end, odds are you'll have to license the engine used in the process.

Well that depends on what else you could be doing. Developing a cure for cancer? Yes. Watching telly? Nope.

But 'good' is such a relative term. Too take your Elite example, in my humble opinion Elite (the original, not Frontier or that other one) is several orders of magnitude better than homeworld.

There was a saying in the Marines that you're twice as capable than you think you are, and 10 times more capable than your parents think you are. Never fool yourself into believing that your dreams are impossible. Just because you think you can't do something today, it doesn't mean you can't do it tomorrow.

I think you've just got a bad case of "Red Oktober". Nothing that a bit of positive thinking can't fix. Break it down, and attack one small problem at a time.

> I think you've just got a bad case of "Red Oktober"

His keyboard is faulty?

Making your own game is far more satisfying than modding something - even if your game never gets finished. You'll learn to code (or at least understand coders) and if you want a job in the industry it's better to show something you have made from scratch than showing a mod (although modding skills seem to be a plus these days too).

Homeworld and Elite are quite different games, you won't be able to mod homeworld to Elite... and Elite was a better game IMO even without the fancy gfx HW has. But I have never like RTSes that much so I'm biased.

Agree that the original Elite was by far the best of its kind. I honestly think it could be easily recreated in Blitz3d as there is really very little to the game mechanics. I've never tried modding myself but you'd get a better sense of satisfaction by building the engine from the ground up and the experience you'd gain would be invaluable for future projects.

Stevie

Depends on what causes you to say that.

I always use commercial media (music/sound/textures/graphics/meshes) in my own projects. I can make my projects drip with quality with very little effort.

The only way you will fail is if you tell yourself stuff like this. Decide what you want to do, and stick with it. Don't let anything or anyone make you change your mind. Don't have any doubts about completing your project. Just keep plodding away at it, and you will get there.

I don't know your capabilities or your goal with making games (whether you want to get into the industry/make a commercial game/make something better than what is on the market/make something for the sake of making something/do something you enjoy) so I guess - what is your goal?

Make you own game!

No matter how studip it will turn out it's much more satisfying going your own steps instead of stepping into footsteps others already made. It's only good cloning other things if you can do it better or have a real passion with a certain game. Otherwise it's a waste of time in my opinion...

I wouldn't try to make any of those games unless I had a big team and tons of industry experience. Better to start small and build up ...

> Hand on heart if I worked every hour under the sun,

Try working indoors.

On the other hand... even a relatively simple game can be a huge undertaking (I know, I've been working on one game, afterhours, for over 2 years now and it's still not finished). So you do have to take into account the workload...

If you want to mod games, then go mod games.

a case of the Red Ocktobers, huh...

hahahahahaa... ok 'duck... that's your first one today...


HK... there's a lot to be said for modding... but there's equally as much to be said for creating an original game... if not more...

you can listen to all the motivation stuff that the drill seargents yell at you if you want, but remember... it's nothing but motivational crap... (i know... i used to be a seargent... not a drill seargent mind you, but i shot my share of the __it)...

despite what the marines say... you are NOT twice as capable as you think you are... as a matter of fact, most people aren't even a tenth as capable as their wet dreams would have em imagine ... hard reality, but accept it... it's a fact...

there are some things that you will just never do... either because you can't, don't have the talent, or are just plain not willing to do what it takes to even give yourself a fair shot at accomplishing these things...

it's that plain and simple... don't delude yourself with all that rahh rahhh, i can do it crap... be real... make an honest assessment of your capabilities...

if you think you won't do something, or you think you can't do something... then most likely you won't ever get it done... and i didn't hear this from any marine, or any preacher, or any voices from heaven...

it's just plain simple common sense...

*but* if you make the concious decision to do something... and plot a realistic path to follow, in most cases you will accomplish what you set out to do...

now, only you know the depths of your commitment... only you truly know if you can program, render, create a game that will satisfy you... ony you can decide whether or not you wanna commit to coding it from scratch, or modding an existing framework...

whichever... only you can make that decision... noone else...

good luck...

--Mike

Yes Red, 'why bother' pressing that full stop 3 times instead of once?

i do it because you wish it E...

can't you see, i don't really exist... i am merely a figment of your imagination... an essential element of the universe that you've created...

for you are the one...

all else is merely creations from your id... existing only to validate your view of the universe around you...

i am only here because you need me... your life would be so empty if you didn't have me here to add a lil enjoyment to it by giving you something you could poke humor at...

so, in short, it is actually you ENAY... it is you who is pressing those keys...

and you are only poking humor at yourself...

plus ENAY, since you are the only one who really exists... you are the only one who is laughing at it as well... and in short, this means that you are laughing at yourself...



--Mike

I say " Follow your dreams " and other stuff like " what does your innermost voice say?" and " Let your soul guide you" or "search deep inside yourself" but finally I say " Be true to your heart". Somebody shoot me.

sorry to quote myself... but, to add a lil on the modding question... right now i'm looking (again) at Torque...

look at the respective visual results... similar shots, with the same graphics (sub model)...



this is from Blitz... and it represents months of coding and months of pilfering other peoples generously offer code to get it to work with my OO engine, all to come up with the scene you see... and i still have to code the cloud cover and rain effects...



this one is from Torque... the regular Torque, with a lil engine mod, not the Torque Shader engine... it represents about an hours worth of work, if that much... and look at the difference...

now, while the sub dynamics aren't in yet, it's quite obvious that modding has it's advantages... you get to take advantage of all the built in stuff a pre made engine already has, without having to code it yourself (the terrain, the clouds, the lighting, the rain, etc)...

after all, a TGE game is nothing more than a mod of the Torque Game Engine... an extensive mod, in my case, to be sure, but still a mod...

from the shots above, you can judge which way might be to your advantage, work and time wise taken into consideration... and even quality wise...

and this doesn't even take into account that multiplayer is already (for the most part) included...

plus... even though the Torque engine is based on old tech graphics, much like Blitz3D, with TGE you have the capability to mode the engine code a bit, to add some up dated graphics for example... to up the anti, so to speak... if we had this similar capability with Blitz... i'd have no complaints... and probably be done withthe thing...

anyway... this is just to give an added perspective to my response to your question above...

you may be right... why bother... i mean, either way you will have to do some work, but by modding, the workload should be a lot less... and the consistency of the scenery elements should be more inline...

--Mike

Red. i see no cool clip planed water reflections yet ;)
*kicks Red's behind*

You will be able to get a nice result with it!!

Actually, when I think about it, I'm surprised that all of you don't just give up. Let's face the facts - nobody is ever going to be better than me - I could code a more technically advanced game in Spectrum Basic than any of you could do in BMax (or, in fact, any language).

Yep. May as well all take up knitting.

Mmm, I think I quite 'owned' there. Might head over to the DB forums and lesson them too.

you're right puki... i'm throwin' in the towel now... i'm not worthy...

Cyg... i'm gonna do it... honest :)

i was just looking at my reflection clipping yesterday, and it's still giving me a lil unwanted artifacting when the view is at certain postions and angles... i'm going to have to add your code to get rid of it...

--Mike

Red - all you need is to get a good artist on board - I'd help but I'm busy. I could soon sort out your sub game to look way better than it is in no time at all...you'd be better off just coding.

the sub looks that bad HJ???

geeee... but hey, i'm willing to accept it, if it's the truth...

also, that's another reason why modding might be a viable option... the game isn't just the sub, but the water, the skies, the terrain... all the other stuff that is part of the game...

what does each respective one look like to you, as well...


--Mike

Well it's all okay for a one man show - no doubt about that, but you keep on comparing your own stuff with more polished efforts...a good artist would sort out all your woes and finally lay your restless spirit...either that or a stake through your heart might work!

Seriously you should put out for an artist - I don't think anybody would question your staying power for seeing a project through to the end. In fact I'd say your were a 100% safe bet and that means a lot for an artist who is going to team up with you and actually want to see something for all his efforts. I think you'd get quite a few offers.

hey... where's that screenshot you posted a while back inthe Showcase... or anything you got handy at the moment... just so i can take another look at some of your stuff...

i remember it was pretty good...

also... what about this one...



i always thought this was good enough for prime time...

your honest assesment...

--Mike

From the atmosphere i prefer the first of the two sub pictures (from outside)...you should work on the sub!

Well I've been rail-roaded into mobiles for so long now I've nothing recent and that relevant to show.

*deleted*

..But here's a few 512x512 textures for a warehouse media pack.

*deleted*

and of course a few enemies from my own game.

*deleted*

@red ocktober: hmm, i think, it shouldn't be thaat different to do the torque scene you posted in blitz.. you just transported your sub into torque... try transfering all the torque gfx to your blitz version and youll see, that it looks quite similar ^^. maybe an artist making you some nice textures for sky and ocean is really all you need :)

I think it matters how dedicated and motavated you are. If you can really dedicate your self to one thing for a long period of time, make your own engine and game. If you want rather instant and good results, mod a game, but you didn't make it all, so it doesn't feel as good as doing it yourself.

Tarbash,

Wow fab stuff dude!

@Red - hold on a second Red - firstly you can put a cloud/sky box inot the b3D version in 10 mins, You could make that great looking Torque terrain (something similar anyway) in about 20 mins in TerraEd Pro (Filax) more time if you want it looking better.

Ok the water in Torque looks good, but you are being tempted by the stuff that make ALL TORQUE games look very similar. And thats stuff you don't really programme or design, its just stuff built in to Torque to begin with!

So, my message to you is get off your bum and do some serious b3D stuff dude - come on (lol) ;) Don't show a poor screenie from your sub sim - make the terrain and the sky box better in about half an hour and lets see some real B3D great looking stuff.

That control room just needs some more detailed environment polys and proper lighting otherwise it looks fine. 3DW Studio will sort that out in no time and it'll look a damn sight better than it does now - for sure.

You need to make better use of the tools you have for B3D - then you'll start to see results you'll be well proud of!

IPete2.

Oh yeh the last shot you posted. It's great for a one man show Red! But I know you'd be a lot happier with it if a good artist did it - he'd make sure all those textures sat together and look liked they belong in the same room. There are so many tiny little touches that a good artist will make automatically - believe me he'd make all the graphics with a plan and forethought. It would just look right without you worrying all the time - and then you could code like a whirlwind.

Great work Hujiklo.

hot looking stuff you got there HJ...

the warehouse scene is close to what the kind of stuff i'd be looking for...

think that could be reproduced in Blitz... the shadows moving with that overhead lamp as it swung... or are they lightmapped into the scene...

what did that shot come from?


yup... you're right... that's the difference between programmers art and the real thing...


inarie... actually, there are some clouds in there... sorry, the shot was taken from code i was testing fog in...

here's one without the fog...



and that was done by a pretty good artist... i haven't changed the images from the ones that fredborg included with his code in the water competition we had a while back... the water textures are mine, but the sky dome still shows his textures...

hey what do you guys think of this screenie...





--Mike

They sky's the limit on what you can accomplish, but you have to pursue both the programming and the business end of things. There is a lot of pro-quality work around here that never goes anywhere, because it never gets seen by anyone but a few British nerds on a forum. There are a lot of inferior products out there that make a lot more money, because they have a business plan and a budget.

For example, gile[s] could be an industry standard, but it just gets sold to UK teenagers.

Now that is do-able in Blitz...get an artist and your game will look like this! Don't know if they're real-time shadows or not, but I don't even think they're important...nice but not important!

k.. thx for all the input guys...

i think i'd better hand the thread back to HK before he sues me for almost hijacking it...

:)

--Mike

That interior looks great.

the bottom interior is a screenshot from silent hunter3... the one above that (the one that doesn't look so good :) ) is mine...

--Mike

I prefer to write me own then at least if there is a problem I can fix it myself, there is nothing worse than having to wait months for a fix for a niggling problem that halts your projects.

Red:
Have you looked at L3dt for doing terrains?
It's a great editor, and it works sort of like Terragen in that the terrain is generated automatically along with textures. It even does texture splatting now! (The editor is built around working for game development).
It takes a bit of fiddling to get it working in Blitz3d, but it has been done before. (However, I promptly deleted the file and forgot how I did it).

H&K, i would say you should join a team project geared towards what you are interested in.

unless someone is confident that they can produce a whole game on their own they shouldn't try.

@Muk
But what do you do to get that?

You would have to had "something" finished.

Then would you just post on the boards asking for a team? Or would you search for a team?

Given thats a way to go, would you recomend staying with Bmax, or moveing to a "Base" language with a greater user err base?

The thing is, want I want, is to decribe a game mechanic(?), then wakeup the next day, and I've programmed it in my sleep. And so I suppose I would need to be BOSS of the team.

So. Does anyone want to work for free, in MY project team? ;)

@ muk... i think i can get it done by my lonesome... besides, i've gotten plenty of help and some good advice from the people here... besidesHK makes some good points... i think i just need to brush up my talents a bit (a lot???)

besides... a lot fo commercial stuff out there is not that great, like josh said above... i may be able to slide by with my sad looking programmers artwork... take a look at this http://home.att.net/~subbase1

i've seen worse in games :)


thx Mr. P... you're right though, if it's gonna take that much fiddling, it's not gonna be of much use to me... there's Terragen, and something called FreeWorld3D that looks pretty interesting... and Freeworld3d (it's not really free btw) exports to B3d... http://www.freeworld3d.org/


@ Edz... true, waiting for someone else to fix a bug, or add a feature can be frustrating... that's why i like Torque... if you are able, you can go right in there and mod the engine to your hearts content...

--Mike

Gah! Red you're going to die of fretfulness before you finish your sub game! You're spreading yourself way too thin for what you want to achieve. Take a couple of weeks off and put some energy into finding a good artist to partner up with - there's got to be some salty old seadogs out there who are great artists and who'd die for the chance to use their talents on a good sub sim. You'd be churning the sea-sims out in no time - you'd get on great...who knows - maybe you'd paddle off into the sunset together?...maybe open up a clam home for battered prawns, and wrestle each other in brine for the local tourists? ...no..no that was my dream..sniffle

Who lives in a pineapple under the sea...

(altogether now!)

Lol!

IPete2.

:) you may be right HJ...

--Mike

> But what do you do to get that?
> You would have to had "something" finished.
> Then would you just post on the boards asking for a team? Or would you search for a team?

good question H&K! well, do you have something finished then? if you haven't got anything then i think you'd be wasting your time trying to get people to join your own team, so then you could join someone else's team. i think that kind of sums it up.

> Given thats a way to go, would you recomend staying with Bmax, or moveing to a "Base" language with a greater user err base?

you meant "Basic" language, right? i would say essentially the language used shouldn't be the most important decision, if you think you need a team and can't find one here, then you would have to try another developer's community.

> The thing is, want I want, is to decribe a game mechanic(?), then wakeup the next day, and I've programmed it in my sleep. And so I suppose I would need to be BOSS of the team.
> So. Does anyone want to work for free, in MY project team? ;)

I think we all want that! lol.

@Muk,
What I ment by "Base" language was the main language the team was using. Ie That in which the core code was written in.

I probably should have just said "Main" language, but I changed it to base to make the "User err base" joke (It wasnt a very funny joke, but it made me smile when I typed it)


Ummmm, The Only One He Ever Finished
So no, not realy

That I feel is the main problem. I enjoy programing, and its the act of programming that I do, not the "Finishing" things way that you realy need to get on in the world
Its the same with writting, I have enough "Chapters" for quite a few books, yet have never finished one

i've never played LOM but have you seen this remake for gba? might be of interest.

http://www.geocities.com/quirky_2k1/games/lom/index.html

You realy should play it. If only to see how much game mechanics Mike managed to get into 48K (-7 for the screen)

But above that its one of the classics of gaming history
(It would have been MORE classic, if they had sold a GOLD edition, which included my editor)

hmmm...i really dont like it when people say its easy to
make a certain kind of game. Most of the people making
these statements havent tried it..

Making a modern elite clone - jst some problems.

1] spacial partioning in a massive 3D world.

2] bullet collisions - massive amounts of particle collisions.

3] scale - modeling issues...giant ships..texturing

4] formations and pathfinding - intelligent behaviour..

those a jst a few problems...creating a modern elite style
clone is no small task..dont be fooled into thinking its
easy.

anyway - sorry to rant a little - but ive tried making an
elite style clone - it wasnt an easy task..

To be honest - you can do almost anything in b3d or bmax
if you put the effort in..it really comes down to sacrafice..
you get what you put in...

yeh..dev teams..heh - goodluck with that - most people
are unreliable - including me ;)

haha! and -16k for the operating system. :)

yeah, you really should finish that in blitzmax!

finish it! finish it! *the crowd chants* :)