vb or c#?

What do you guys reckon to these languages, im considering expanding my skills and am thinking bout learning vb 2005 or c#?

I like the look of vb and am keen to use it, is it viable to use for a 3d game.

I know bmax is available and have played with it alot, think it's wicked but does it have advantages over vb?

How is c#? How is it better/worse than c++?
What advantages does bmax have over it?

Im guessing bmax syntax is much easier to understand/read although vb looks so similar.

ps I would like blitz member opinions as blitz3d is all i have ever used and the only coding community i am part of. Ive had a little dabble into c++ years back and a thorough playtest of bmax, which has a great syntax and oop and i had little problem moving onto from blitz3d as i am more of a oop coder.

The only thing BMax has over either VB or C# for me is that I'm more familiar with it than either of those, and that it doesn't require the CLR/.Net Framework be installed for the games to run.

I don't see any purpose in using VB over C#. C# is dead simple, and it's surely faster.

How is c# compared to c++?

Are you kidding me?

C#

C# was written 'from scratch' by MicroSoft and IMHO is a more rounded language than C++. Plus the dev environment is way superior.

VB.NET and C#.NET are very similar as they both share the CLR / .NET framework. The differences are just syntactical. A cynic would say VB.NET was developed just to get the VB6 guys on board before they pull the plug and only continue to develop C#.

If you have the choice learn C# over VB or C++

C# is NOT faster than VB.NET as they share the same runtime! They both produce the same MSIL code and the runtime is the same. Therefore a C# app will run at the same speed as a VB.NET app (as long as it's written the same).

I agree c# is pretty much the industry norm now (or becoming so).

Some people still like to compile the code into native executable, that's a reason VC++ still support it.

Anyway the real meaning of programming is to achieve something in your way, so if it works, it's good.

I think learning C# would be a smart investment for the future.. with microsofts full weight behind it, it'll probably become very widespread

C# is orgasmically good.

c# is far from the industry norm, especially in games.

.

Visual basic is quite cute - being basic it is familiar to use and you can venture in DirectX and a lot of other goodies, all in a pretty much familiar basic environment.

An extremely good book for Visual Basic programmers and, indeed, Blitz3D programmers is Visual Basic Graphics Programming (I have the Second Edition).

VB is viable for 3D stuff - it is just slower than the C family.

Just a shame no language is a patch on Blitz3D as I would use them.

I find it easier - even though I've used vb6 before extensively.

vb.net and c# should be very similar in terms of speed given that they compile to the same IML. The difference in speed between c++/Native DirectX and c#/Managed DirectX is not a lot. I would expect to see a lot more games written in c# with Managed DirectX in the future especially given that the major bottleneck in games is the gpu not the cpu.

> Visual Basic Graphics Programming

Although this is an excellent book it is for VB6 and not vb.net

As for C# vs VB.NET. If you learn one then you have pretty much learned the other. I prefer VB, and in a C# shop I simply use the VB to C# (and vice versa) converter.

Woops, my slippage there.

EDIT:
Or was it?

Sniff?

I think C is the most exciting of the two, and offers you the opportunity to develop for the 360 somewhere down the road.

Would you recomend giving up BMax and moving to c#?

Same question as H&K.
With the route bmax is taking ie the 3d module coming sooner or later and hopefully being similar in ease of use as blitz3d should i stick to bmax or learn 3d in c#, which i am now favouring, plus it seems easier than i thought, even if i used the truevision module in bmax, c# can also use it and i am seeing more longterm benefits of learning c#.

Developed an app in B3D, hung together a GUI for it in VB6. My (limited) experience with VB6 is that it performs well on the GUI development area.... Bought BMax a month or so ago and first impressions are it's okay. The IDE for BMax could do with a polish however. Given the choice now between VB or C#... I suppose it'd depend on what you plan to develop.

And the bonus by using any one of the two is that you can build 'ASP.NET 2' webpages! :)

I'm using web developer, with VB.NET, and it's a breeze! :)



Rebuilt more like!

Dabz

I use C# at work and its a very robust environment... Im not sure how optimized it is though... my experience in the past is that the Blitz products while having a less than desirable IDE make up for it on raw speed / executable size and ease of coding Graphics related stuff.

I've not used MAX yet so I can't say anything on that one but I can say that if your decision is between VB and C# go with C# in a heartbeat.

** urban legend alert! urban legend alert! **

all managed code executes from the same CLR (runtime)... how can one be faster than the other?


back to the topic at hand... learn both... vb comes in real handy, and your familiarity to the BASIC syntax from using Blitz3D will help ease the learning curve...

then jump into c#... it's not that much different...

that way you'll have the best of both (microsoft) worlds...

--Mike

I always wanted to learn a C language, mainly because they're mor ecommon than BMax. I had tried learning C++ before and personally I found C# to be alot easier and alot more fun!

Also After going through the first 7 chapters my C# book I found BMax helped me understand C# and C# helped with my understanding of BMax!

@Red,

When people say use a global here or a local here to make things faster. The code runs from the same runtime, so how can it possibly run faster. ;)


(This is a joke, so dont post @ me)(Unless its funny)

Delphi is a much nicer language :)

Blitz3D practically gets you naked and into bed.

You have to get a ring on Delphi's finger before that

I'm a C# fan. It's served me well and it's an elegant language (for the most part). I actually went with VB.Net originally, having come from a VB6 background [spit]. I made the switch to C# a few years ago and I've never looked back - I've been a C# contractor ever since. FYI, C# jobs generally pay (considerably) more than VB.Net jobs here in the UK. At least in my experience they do.

I read that C# is some 5% faster than VB.Net in general, due to thes slightly optimised IL it produces. I dunno how true that is though...

I looked at Delphi 3 quite a few years back, having worked with Turbo Pascal at college. I just didn't take to it, and I was never quite sure why.

vb6 != vb.net. They are entirely different under the hood, and theres pretty significant differences language wise.

@Red- even though they all use the same il language, it doesnt mean the compilers generating the il are creating the same exact stream of instructions. So I'd say its very possible someone can create a less efficient compiler. The JIT needs to be fast, and can only do so much optimization...

I'm a c# guy myself. VB.net does seem interesting but somethings about it I dont care for. I've never been fond of 'Dim blah as type'... I hate that syntax :) Casting seems a bit long winded as well. Also vb lacks pointers. And indexers.

Performance between vb and c# should be a wash. Theres a couple articles I've on the net that show the vb compiler emmiting an extra instruction or 2 at times, but I don't think you can seriously factor it in.( MS makes good compilers. )In some situations like writing to bitmaps, you'll get better performance out of c# because you can do pointer magic.

In just a couple of odd tests I've ran, c# /.net 2.0 has been magnitudes faster than blitz plus and blitz3d. Max I dunno about cuz I don't own it.

I'm pretty happy with c# :) .Net game dev is still young, but its growing. Compared to when i first started learning c#, and everyone was spouting how c# was slow, and would never be used for games... Now its heading to the xbox360

You've got options for gamedev, but tbh I havent really checked to many of them out in detail.

-Managed Direct X
-Tao Framework ( Sdl, OpenGl, OpenAl, ODE )
-SDL.Net
-Truevision
-Irrlicht
-Realmforge/Axiom ( based off of ogre )
-FlatRedBall
-Purple

I'm sure theres more out there.

I hear that C# is slightly faster than VB due to its structure. The real difference I do not know, but I imagine we're not looking at anyting major due to its outputted code.

I'm playing with the VB Express Edition at the moment for research but I have to admit Delphi seems to beat it at every angle for Win32 applications.

From the employment view I'd recommend C# for the long term though.

Nope. VB occasionally outputs extra il, simple as that. "Structure" is the same for all .net languages, stack based.

regardless of whether c# or vb is faster or not, i would say c# is the future. so if you have to learn one then learn c#. although this may be a biased opinion as i don't like vb. :)

I prefer the c# syntax to vb.net and also find that bmax coding has made c# easier to understand from what i have seen of it.
I love blitz3d but it is very limited and although bmax is great i want a language which is more universally used/recognised and with tonnes of freedom and power :)

i think if i had to know well say 5 languages for like a job programming then it would probably be c, c++, c#, vb and java.

in my case i don't, i just almost always program in basic languages because they are easier to read. however, knowing general c syntax is very helpful and not that hard when you can find reliable sources. The problem with a lot of c is the lack of documentation rather than the language, imho.

edit: of course, if the job required an internet basis, then the languages mentioned above would have to double and include things like asp, actionscript, etc. just in case anyone wants to mention that :)

.

You mean a C# 2.0 book.
Visual C# 2005 is just an IDE which you could replace by Code:Blocks or anything else.

I liked c# unleashed by joe mayo. Its for the 1.1 framework, but in general everything in there still applies to 2.0.

Well, it won't cover generics and the new collection classes, but I assume hes released an updated version.

@Orca...

granted, that may or may not be true... but you are missing an important, and obvious, part of the equation...
... in order for you to judge the speed of the output, you've gotta run the code... and the JIT compiler and runtime are gonna make arbitrary decisions (there are ways to override) that will determine the final output performance.

you are ignoring something which should be obvious to you... you are thinking back to a time when you compiled your humongous app into a single binary, and all of it was run at one time... the worm has turned... the new order is something entirely different...

faster, slower, compiler, interpreter, they all take on totally different meanings in the world of .net...

@ Orca...
could you confirm that with a brief example, or article from an acknowledged source... i'm not disputing this, it does seem logical, but i'd like to know this for sure...

@ Qube... yes, Delphi... the best thought out, best compiled, best overall coding language i've experienced to date... and i hate Pascal :)


--Mike

>>>Would you recomend giving up BMax and moving to c#?

Bmax is easier

VB.net vs. C# - i think you should choose C# - i think it have more future (mono)

hm but i don't like .NET...

I've been programming professionally in .net since before it's first official release, and am proud to be an 'early achiever' at MCAD and MCSD certification in Microsoft .Net.
Anyway, enough of that...

If you are thinking about actually finding work with software development in .Net, you need to go C# 100%. There are many, many times more C# jobs than there are in VB. I believe a lot of that is because companies believe a C# developer is more likely to have come from an object-oriented background (i.e. java), and also from the misconception that VB developers just produce garbage code.

If you are learning .Net for your own sake and never plan to use it to find a job, then it doesn't matter whether you choose VB.net or C#.net. It is all a matter of personal preference.

I personally came to .Net development as a career decision, coming from a basic background. I'd been working as a basic developer for MANY years, so I really struggled with the decision to go with C# instead of vb.net. I got awards in the 1980s for software developed in Microsoft's Basic PDS (Professional Development System) - anybody remember that? Then I did some development in GFA basic, and every version of MS Visual Basic that has ever come out.

So anyway, my decision to move to C# was career-based. I still do some development in VB.Net on a contract now and then, but those are very rare and far between. The move from VB6 to C# was not really very difficult, and C# was easy to learn. I did have to struggle through growing pains with such things as case sensitivity, but now it's second nature and I prefer it.

Book recommendations (whether or not these would be good choices depend on what you decide to do with .Net) -
Pro Asp.Net 2.0 in C# 2005
Pro C# 2005 and the .Net 2.0 Platform
Pro .Net 2.0 Graphics Programming
Asp.net 2.0 MVP Hacks and Tips
Asp.net 2.0 Website Programming Problem - Design - Solution
Head First Design Patterns

About the Design Patterns book - the source code in the book is in java, but it is still my recommendation for learning patterns. There are a couple of design patterns books with code in C#, but they are not well written IMHO.
The C# code for the Head First Design Patterns book can be found at -
http://www.msquaredweb.com/DesignPatterns/

Mark.

.

> If you are thinking about actually finding work with software development in .Net, you need to go C# 100%

This must depend on area, I did a quick check on dice and found in both Philadelphia and Minneapolis that searches for the term VB turned up more jobs then for C#.

The fact is you can't go wrong with learning either language, throw in java as well and you've got a good 80% of the jobs out there covered, except in professional game programming where C++ still dominates.

Why choose?, learn them both.
You will eventually move over to the one you feel most comfortable with(and it's always cool to be multilingual)
I know VB.net better than C# but I know C# enough to produce the same thing or simply just port it to vb.net.

Was that hitting on all vb jobs? There are a lot of vba programming jobs, vb6, etc. still available. At least in the markets where I have worked (Dallas, TX and Denver, CO) the C# jobs far outnumber the vb.net jobs, and have since 2002. Of course, those numbers can be thrown off by one shop hiring 25 developers.

> Was that hitting on all vb jobs? There are a lot of vba programming jobs, vb6,

It was for the term VB, so it included a lot of VB6 work as well, but the majority appeared to be VB.NET. On the flip side a number of the C# jobs also listed VB.NET in their description. So at least for me, although I have heard that there are more C# jobs then there are VB.NET jobs I have not yet seen it in any test that I've done.

> Why choose?, learn them both.

Sweenie hit it on the head though, try them both and choose which you like.

@Red :)



No I've actually done a fair amount of reading and looking into the clr and managed performance. I'm not a guru, but I'm not out of line here either :)


http://builder.com.com/5100-6373-1027686.html

from the article..


thats just the first article I've dug up right now, but there is other similiar ones out there if you look. Ive seen them. I'd assume nop's should be easy for the jit to optimize away.. but this article points out that an extra local is created.

Thats also apparently referring to the vbc thats in the 1.1 framework. It may be improved with 2.0...just to restate my original opinion again -- I doubt these differences between csc and vbc are worth even considering( but they ARE there ).

The microsoft just-in-time compiler is quite good, but it can only do so much optimizing-- it has to be done relatively quick. Its a very limited time frame to work in. Plopping in extraeneous instructions doesnt strike me as being beneficial for performance..

Like I've also pointed out, there are situations where you can get better performance with pointers. VB.Net cant use pointers, but c# can.

hahAHAHAHAHAAAA... have you actually tried this with the latest version of c# and vb.net orca... have you done any of this testing yourself...

that article that you quoted from is how many years old... not to mention that both the language and their respective compilers are wayyy past that beta stage that the test results represented in those articles refer to...

stop googling about and do some tests yourself... the stuff you've just shown me is old news... known by anyone who was beta testing the languages... you may find that the current compiler is a bit different...

as far as your reference to pointers being an advantage... well...


a quote from DNJ Online...

plus...



finally... still quoting from DNJ Online...


ya gotta stop reading all these googled up articles though... get some real hands on experience and background in both c# and vb.net... it shows that you actually don't have this O...

... and a lil background in the old vb and c++ wouldn't hurt either to give you some perspective.


no putdown here, it's just that your statements show that the depth of understanding is very shallow... there are reasons for the move away from pointers in the 'new order' that is .net... and the JIT feature of the compiler is really not so much about optimizing as it is about other things that .net is all about.



--Mike

The best advice I can give is to not get hung up on syntax.

Design is syntactically agnostic.

Once you understand what you want the application you're writing to do, you'll find that it's not that difficult to move it from VB to C# to Java to Python to BlitzMax to Delphi and back again.

At that point, the considerations are a matter of personal preference and portability.

If you want to make a career out of software development, being able to move from one language to another is an important skill. For example, if you know VB6 and one of the .Net languages, you'll be in a position to assist a company in migrating their legacy system to a new one in the .Net architecture. The more languages you expose yourself to, the more you'll learn that this part really is the minor worry of software development.

Where I work, there are components written in both C# and VB.Net. While I and most of the people on my team tend to favor C#, there's really not a whole lot of difference in performance that we've seen from the components written in VB.Net.

In fact, if you really want to, you can use VB.Net's runtime functions from within C# (and vice-versa). You just have to import the appropriate name spaces.

As of VS 2005, you can mix projects (aka .dll's) within your solution that are written in either VB.Net or C#.

Vista is going to be based quite a lot around the .Net architecture, so I imagine the game-specific bits have had some focus by the folks at Microsoft. Going the .Net route in that regard will not be steering the wrong way. (incidentally, Delphi 8 will be .Net compliant, and IronPython is being actively developed at Microsoft)

As someone eluded to earlier, the C# runtime name-spaces will be finding it's way to XBox 360, so that option might be attractive to some people.

BlitzMax, Java, Python... are all highly portable languages that provide for some game-development applications. Sun is aggressively trying to get the JVM on the consoles to make Java an attractive game-development platform. The JVM, BlitzMax and Python are already available on all the major computer platforms if PC gaming is your target market.

Someone also mentioned above that Native code generation is an advantage some languages have. .Net certainly has the option to "N-Gen", and has for quite a long time.

Personally, I don't believe that's a strength anymore. JIT compliation's overhead is far lighter than what you lose by distributing native-code. With N-Gen, you restrain your application to a particular CPU (or number of CPU's) and in the case of Linux and OS-X, the o.s.'s kernal.

@Red

First you say..


I provide said article in above post.

Now you say..


Hmmmm.... convienant.

Regarding pointers:


IntPtr?? Notice the limited part? The only thing IntPtr does is hold an address. Its there as a proxy for languages that dont use pointers. It doesn't magically give you the ability to read/write managed memory. To do that you need managed c++ or c# with unsafe/fixed blocks. IntPtr doesnt give you things like, oh I dunno... pointer arithmetic. Being able to get a pointer to a Bitmap's pixels, for fast reading/writes. Good Luck trying that with IntPtr.( But with your superior understanding of .net you should have known this already... )



"JIT feature of the compiler"??

You make a statement like that, and then have the nerve to tell me that my understanding of .net is shallow?? Talk about insulting.

Just a FYI, but the jit is not a feature, its a totally seperate compiler in itself. And yes, performance does play an important role in the clr, as do memory management, code security, code as a component, code portability, etc..


Who are you to tell me what experience I do or do not have? I've never claimed to be an expert vb.net user, but I do know the runtime and bcl quite well. I've been using c# almost exclusively for the past 2 years. You use c#, and guesswhat? You end up crossing paths with vb.net alot( and vice versa )

I lurk these forums daily, but very rarely post. I have no reason to jump in here and just "make stuff up" all of a sudden. If I didnt know what I was talking about, I wouldnt be posting. Period.

Actually I think its quite obvious who knows there shit here.

And its also pretty clear that you just want a pissing contest. Pick someone else, I'm done.

> Pick someone else, I'm done.

Red Ocktober is nearly 60 years old, you've just got to smile at his charming randomness and triple full stop antics.

If you guys are thinking about using C# to write games, have a look at the C# books by Tom Miller. He is the Managed DirectX for .NET architech for Microsoft, so he knows his stuff. Anyway, to write games in C#, you take the seriously nice language that C# is, and perform every trick in his books to get around the very things that make C# nice in order to get game performance.

It's quite possible to write some nice stuff in C# (heck; I've got a full 3D thing happening in it), but the CLR and the managed enviroment is a serious problem, even on high specced machines. His blog (at Microsoft) documents the ongoing problem to get a decent game loop running that doesn't cause a massive memory runaway is quite instructive.

BlitzMax isn't quite as nice, syntactically, as C# - but it runs a heck of a lot nicer in games.

Plus, you get the one .exe, you don't need the whole .NET framework as well.


@RocketGnome,

Don't forget that the installer that ships with Visual Studion 2003 (and 2005, I believe) is smart, in that is takes your MIL and does a permanent compile for the target machine at install time, so you get a native code installation (with .NET dependencies and management, of course).

Neil

Orca... take a pill or something... calm down... you're at risk of being arrested for criminal drug evasion... your biosigns are nearing critical levels dude...



remember... they are watching you... they know...

i know...

everyone knows...



be calm...

my time... is your time...


it's obvious you don't have the depth of knowledge to present a good arguement to support your case... it would be too easy for me to pull your panties down around your ankles in showing just how wrong you are...


but being the nice guy i am, i ill not engage in such tactics... a 546... there... can you feel that...

instead, i'll merely ask you to read, and try and comprehend the responses by the people around you... RocketGnome and neilo... for instance... ya see, these people seem to know what they're talking about... it's obvious from their balanced and factually accurate responses... just like it was obvious to me, from your unbalanced and non factual replies, that you didn't know what you were talking about...

who in their right senses would quote a 5 year old article written about a beta version of the thing and expect it to still be relevant...



HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!! oh, forgive me... i'm sorry... that one just slipped out...


here... take one green pill... and one hour later, take two of these red pills... help *IS* on the way...



you are a true believer... of the masses, for the masses...

made in the image of man... for man...

blessings of the state... blessing of the masses...

learn...

learn more...

learn more... now...



and be happy...


--Mike

.

the theatre of noise is ample proof of your potential angel...

orca ruined it way above... as you would plainly see, if you took time to read it and halfway understand what you read...

fo sho, yo mind seems to be easily boogled, angel dude...

... but that's not my problem.




--Mike

This place, every so often, reminds me of "Third Rock from the Sun"- The children are mature but the Adults are kids.

Anyhow, in an attempt to ressurect the thread back to it's former glory:

I like C#- I still haven't spent anywhere near enough time with it at all. I wish I could say, "Bugger everything. I'm going to spend 1 week doing nothing at all except C#"- and at the end of the week, I'd know enough about it to start some smaller projects.

I kind of love the BlitzMax language myself. I prefer it to C# because how I use it makes it more readable, and it's familiar.

of course it reminds you of a tv show Cyg... i doubt if you are really aware of anything that you have not seen on the tube in your relatively short existance on the rock...

i would even go as far as saying, that your whole life is most likely predicated by your deluded prespectives, perspectives formed from what you've see on that box... and come to believe...

it is no surprise to me that you view this place in such a manner... you have no other sound viewpoint from which to make your call...


it's understandable... i understand... it's ok...

If you feel you are not properly sedated, call 348-844 immediately. Failure to do so may result in prosecution for criminal drug evasion.





let us be thankful we have an occupation to fill.

Work hard, increase production, prevent accidents and be happy.

let us be thankful we have commerce.

buy...

buy more...

buy more now...


buy... and be happy.



yes... indeed, lets get back to the topic at hand...


--Mike

If you just ignore the rambling old man, he'll soon go away. :)

ENAY looks in the mirror...


--Mike

I'll bet you're jealous I don't have a triple chin and wrinkles.

ENAY gets an affectionate pinch of the cheek...

he likes it...

--Mike

I like your triple full stops more!

so you'd like us to believe... but we know better




ENAY goes to the joint...


--Mike