AntiTrust

Anyone who is a lawyer.
Could we sue The Game Creators under European antitrust laws for withholding Blitztree and Blitzgrass?

Well, I'm not sure. I have had a few goes at getting these products back again off them - probably over a period of a year.

No.

This is my last contact:

I just made a new enquiry:

It does seem like it should be somehow illegal, to swallow up a product which people are using apparently for the simple purpose of removing competition.

So... Good work, Puki!
(Let's just keep pestering them until something happens - it's always the small, long-lived flee that makes the most impact. House flies just get squashed).

What do you mean competition? How can buying up a product and not selling it give you an unfair competitive advantage? Besides, it's not like TGC have a monopoly on Grass and Tree programs, so even if it did somehow give them a competitive advantage, anti-trust laws can not possibly apply.

@Flame,
Honestly the reason I didnt make an opinion either way when I posted the question, Was that I had just spend 3hrs looking myself on the World Wide Confuserthon.
And The Laws are a mess.
If I were you I really wouldnt assume anything in replys you have published, because, honestly I think only an Antitrust Lawyer can even tell us what is relevent.

For Example

They are giving an unfair advantage to Dark Basic, by removing from the market any product with Blitz in its name. ie Dark Tree is ok but Blitz tree isnt.
(Maybe this isnt illeagal, maybe it is, the point is unless we are really up on our antitrust law we dont know)

>Anyone who is a lawyer.

You must be joking! Only fools take legal advice from a forum on the WWW.

>Could we sue The Game Creators under European antitrust
>laws for withholding Blitztree and Blitzgrass?

There is no such thing as 'European antitrust laws'.

>And The Laws are a mess.

No, they're just different in every country.

>Antitrust Lawyer can even tell us what is relevent.

And that's the problem. In most european countries, the state is responsible for market regulation, including deciding what is unfair competition. This means that you generally don't sue, but rather you make your case in writing to the relevant department of the state, and they will then render a decision. If the company then doesn't follow this decision, then the relevant department of the state will then sue.

In either case, DB buying up products with Blitz in their name and removing them from the market, will likely be rejected because it's considered not worth spending time on.


Andy

I would be grateful if people would post their interest in obtaining BlitzTree or BlitzGrass (whether it is to purchase them or obtain them as freeware) - I just want to see how many people want the products.


I have the full version of BlitzTree - the 60 tree version - with the BlitzTree 1.42 update. As far as I know, this is the most up-to-date version of BlitzTree.

I do not have BlitzGrass, but am interested in that product.

i agree...

plus, i didn't know we had so many lawyers on board here...

:)

--Mike

@Andy,
I bet microsoft feels really stupid then, for being fined by Brussles $613 million under EU Antitrust laws. (Which apparently dont exist)(But Andy the whole point of me trying to find it there was anyone who actually knew, was to find someone who, like, acctualy knew)


@Puki, When I was using B3d I realy wanted both blitztree and blitzgrass, Ive moved to Bmax now. So I mostly just want TGC to be publicaly shamed for what I feel is wrong.
I bought Terra ed from Filax (Brill), and it had all these "Instructions" for use with blitztree. And I was willing to buy the damb thing, its not like I was asking for it to be given free

your post only helps support what Andy has said above HK... not being the least bit familiar with the legalities, nor the process, makes you a perfect victim of heresay and misinformation...

the final amount of the proposed fine has yet to be decided... the final judgement hasn't even been decided... has it...

besides... what's 600 million to MS... they'll simply add 99 cents to the cost of Windows Vista, and we'll wind up paying the settlement for em...

i think, in the long run, we'll be the ones who'll feel more stupid than MS...

--Mike

@Red, I dont doubt that Andy is probalby right. The point being that The antitrust legislation is STUPID, and I honestly dont think a layman, (Even stunningly clever Laymen like us), can know for sure

But Andy said that there were NO european Laws about antiTrust., Which at some level must be wrong otherwise what are microsoft appealing against

And can you see anyway we can get TGC to either "Abbandon" or sell blitztree or Blitzgrass, cos this was the only way I could think of

you propose to assume that you would be able to litigate successfully in the ongoing proceedings...

i wouldn't bet on it...

Andy stated, and correctly so... that you would have to be a fool to follow advice you find here...

listening to your statements on the subject, only adds credence to his...

you say that these laws do in fact exist... where... under which jurisdiction... i'd be interested in knowing myself...


as far as forcing TGC to 'release the software... i doubt if that's possible... especially if they do in fact have a verifiable right to it under license or contract...

your only hope is asking them nicely... and bringing up antitrust legal issues would surely, in my opinion, be the best way not to approach them...

--Mike

@Red Stop having a go at me for not knowing everything ;o

These laws must exist otherwise what is it that microsoft are appealing against? The are appealing against a "AntiTrust" decision by Brussles.

Now Im not suddjesting that we approch the court in Brussles and start a court case, because I DONT KNOW ANYTHING, about Antitrust laws. I was trying to see if there was anyone here who was a lawer, rather than go to a law site and try to find someone who knew about blitz and TGC

If the whole thing is impossible within a fedral/european court, is it possible in a British court. (Again I DONT KNOW)

The bottom line is that TGC have removed from the market two applications which are for use by their main(?) competitor. It may not breach any "AntiTrust" law, (whether they exist or not), but its not Cricket.

Puki has been asking nicly for them for ages, and I simply wanted to know if anyone here had the qualifications or experiance to say if what they were doing was infact unlawful (Without having to pay £250 an hour)

As far as I know TGC intended on selling the full range of Aliencodec products from the end of January 2006 and were to reopen the forums.

The forums are taking a lot of new registrations - 194 of them so far this year. The bulk of them are May and June 2006. However, nobody is posting on the forums.

I'm not sure how intentional this was by TGC - they bought the full-range of products and then probably realised that they could not do much with BlitzTree and BlitzGrass as they were heavily coded in Blitz and probably not easy (or not possible) to port to Dark Basic.

However, if they have no use (or future use) for the products then I think they should make them freeware.

Personally, I would be happy for Aliencodec to come back from the dead and sell them again. I would also not be bothered if Idigicon started selling them.

Whatever the outcome, I'd like to see the products available to the Blitz Community.

If my current negotiations with TGC result in another wild-goose chase, then I will ask Idigicon if they are interested in obtaining them and selling them.

HAHAHAHAHAAa... goood one HK...

now you see what Andy was talking about :)

lawyers know everything... just ask one...

--Mike

you can't sue people for not selling you something.

Latest answer:




I think TGC are dragging their feet here - so I'll just re-email the guy I was told to email previously - who never emailed me back the last time.

@Smiler.
You would think so wouldnt you.

Its illeagle not to sell antivenem to someone who wants. (Stupid example, but an example nonthe less)
Weve all heard the stories about how if a shop has misspriced somthing they have to sell you it at that price.(Irrelivent of if its true or not)
As far as I understand the Microsoft case, (Which is not very much), they are being sued for giving something away FREE.
The anti trust/ Anti monopoly (uk) laws are there to stop "Unfair" business practices. If its an unfair practice to withhold a product, then maybe you can sue someone for not selling it to you. (The point is I DONT KNOW)

(In all those cowboy films, when the landowner wont sell water to the dirt Farmers, I always thought we were supposed to be on the farmers side. Oh well)

Well, I'll do as TGC ask and email the following:

Of course it's cricket. BRL, you, myself and everyone had an equal opportunity to approach BlitzTree's owners with an offer. TGC are either the only ones who bothered or the ones who made the best offer - hence they now get to decide whether the product goes on sale or not. This happens all the time in business (Nvidia buying 3DFX, for example), either because one company wants an increase in market share or access to tech they don't have. I come from a magazine background and publications were bought/sold only to be closed on a regular basis - unless a company that dominated one area was looking like it was about to buy up the *entire market*, the regulatory bodies took zero interest. Because it's just normal, everyday, boring business.

And I don't really see how TGC is supposed to be using its acquisitions to bolster anti-competitive business practices. I just took a look at their site and TreeMagik EXPORTS TO B3D FFS! I'm also confused how Microsoft is bad for giving stuff away, yet TGC are supposed to have committed the same (anti-trust) transgression for NOT giving stuff away :/ I don't think all of you have quite thought this through.


Yes it's a stupid example because you have a statutory duty of care that directs you to administer anti-venom to someone who is dieing from a snakebite. I don't think anyone is in danger of kicking the bucket directly due to TGC withholding BlitzTree.


You might at least get their name right. Regardless, they'll probably just direct you to the products that ARE on sale.

edit. I cannot be bothered

Why not force TGC to act. I presume that your license for these products were to Aliencodec. Aliencodec no longer exists. I do not recall a transfer of license obligation to TGC. Nor have they maintained the product as per the original license which, like any contract, is now void.

Therefore, if someone would post BlitzTree and Blitz Grass to the Blitz community we would surely find out TGCs position sooner rather than later.

Since they dont appear too concerned over BlitzTree or Grass I suspect nothing much will happen except the Blitz gang having another good tool.

Software licenses and IP are tricky beasts, just look at Symantec and MS and the problems theyve had. Unless Alien Codec transfered the IP to TGC with their obligations to the product intact to TGC than a simple IP transfer where a product is concerned does not constitute a transfer of license.

In short AlienCodec is gone, what are they going to do? TGC will need to prove they not only purchased IP, Code and customer base but also prove they are living up to the promises Alien Codec made to their customers prior to selling out to TGC. Unlikely.

My 2 cents,

Allan

>H&K<

I apologise if my post came across as condescending.

>I bet microsoft feels really stupid then, for being fined
>by Brussles $613 million under EU Antitrust laws. (Which
>apparently dont exist)(But Andy the whole point of me
>trying to find it there was anyone who actually knew, was
>to find someone who, like, acctualy knew)

The problem is that you can't explain how the EU actually works in less than 200 words, and if those 200 words also need to convey some interesting subject like M$ being fined, then you will eventually end up with an article like that. Read my Theodor Von Karmann quote in my sig.

>As far as I understand the Microsoft case, (Which is not
>very much), they are being sued for giving something away
>FREE.

That's only part of the case. Microsoft operates in many different businesses, but they use the money from profitable business to fund unprofitable products in other businesses, thereby collapsing the market in that business.

The point is that the EU commision has found M$ to be abusing it's dominant position in operating systems to push it's own bundled products and lockout competing products.

>But Andy said that there were NO european Laws about
>antiTrust., Which at some level must be wrong otherwise
>what are microsoft appealing against

The EU has two legislative means. EU regulations and EU directives. Directives specify a goal and the country will then implement a national version of this directive which achieves these goals. The regulations could be considered the 'EU law' they refer to, because they are binding for every country without national implementation.

So 'EU antitrust Law' is just a set of regulations, right?
Not really... Most legislation on the issue of antitrust have been issued in the shape of directives, so it's different due to national implementations. There are of course EU regulations on that issue as well, but that is mostly of a broader nature.

Microsoft is appealing a 'finding' by the European Commision. The Commision has the right of 'initiative', ie. it initiates legislation, oversees EU programmes and can act on it's own initiative.


Andy

@Andy,

HAHA, no you didnt sound patronising in you first post, But your second post (The one just above), sounds a lot more authoritative.

I knew it would be unlikely that they could be sued. However I still think its not Cricket

Its quite interesting what actually happens when you mail the support.

Thinking that I'm not the only one that mailed them (but most likely one of the few that owns DBP as well as I came from DB - DBP to PB to B3D), I'm surprised that the only thing the support can do is send you to someone else that perhaps has the right / possibility to help, which himself in the end only sends you to someone else that might package the product which himself never answers the mail.

I can't remember that Aliencodec ever stated that the download needs to be backed up because he sold it together with the possibility to always redownload it.
As he sold the whole stuff to TGC, they now have the job to host it and give us access again, even if it is only to change the license in the future which we have to agree with that download.
It would have been so much easier if they simply had copied the costumer area over as they route the domain to their own as well.

Ah, you found the thread:

I have the final version of BlitzTree3D. I do not have BlitzGrass, but want it.

I'm trying to get some kind of logical answer from TGC - there are a few people on this site who have said they have been given the run-around by TGC over these products and the ex-Aliencodec ones they are currently selling.

They are planning a convention in Chichester, England and, if I don't get an answer prior to then, I may attend such an event. Prior to that I'll be raising the issue on their forums. I'd put it to Dark Basic users along the lines of 'Imagine if a Blitz-related party bought Dark AI and Dark Physics then refused to sell them or distribute them in anyway'. It is obvious DB users would not be happy about such a circumstance.

All TGC have to do is give us simple answers - they are either going to distribute (in whatever way) the products or not - it is a simple question. I fail to see the big secret. Myself and other Blitzers have made perfectly valid enquiries. All this wild-goose chase thing is highly annoying.

Puki,

I like Dream also went the DB route. (HIsoft-Amos-Blitz-C++-Dark-Pure-DarkSDK-BMax), so I assume both of us have forum membership, so if you would like to take a lead on the postings, Im sure both Dream and I could back you up. (And anyone else who has membership I suppose)

Let me know though if you want help, because I only every vist TGC to get FPS stuff for my nephew.

Well, I am not going to do anything drastic - I don't want to use their forums or their conventions for this dispute. Hopefully, TGC will draw this to a conclusion prior to that stage.

I am considering having a word with 'Idigicon', they may actually be interested in obtaining 'BlitzTree' and 'BlitzGrass' to sell on their site - plus, Idigicon could even develop the products further. TGC may be willing to transfer them on the basis that they have never sold these 2 products and seem unlikely to ever sell them.

However, BlitzTree3D 2 may actually be the fly-in-the-ointment - maybe this is TGC's big secret - Aliencodec were well on the way to finishing BlitzTree3D 2 and I wonder if this has anything to do with this wild-goose chase.

We shall see.

EDIT (24/6)

Mmm, I found this over at TGC:

It has begun:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=82348&b=2


TGC are vetting my posts on their forums -

I joined their forums on 29th May 2004.

I have a feeling they are vetting every post going into the thread. The thread post count is 5, but there are only 2 posts in there.


They have hit a problem with my last post - I mentioned the scenario if a 3rd party bought the rights to Dark AI and Dark Physics and then refused to distribute them. This would appear to be a comment they probably don't want DB users to see. Basically, it reverses the situation on DB users and, of course, DB users would not be happy and will probably agree with the fact that Blitz Users cannot access these products - even to purchase them.

Puki, did you purchase BlitzTree? Or did you get it for free?

I paid for it.

Ive posted. (Im a parolee as well)

As they are blocking my posts and my signature, I have changed my forum name to 'Click My Profile Button' - DB users will see my posts are being blocked and also see the date I joined their forums.

"H&K" - I don't see your post - can you see it? I just see two posts.

Mine has just appeared. But yours dont have your name.
Edit, thats because they have "Click my profile" as you said dohh.

TGC spotted what I was doing and let the posts go through (they don't want DB users to become aware - no doubt they will plug that hole in future) - the repeat one is an edit I made to the first post.

Puki, I want to sue you for dwindling bacon supplies.

I would change your name back. Trying to be clever with them is not our aim. If we feel we have a good augument/point of view, lets try and let that be enough. (Yes I know I said lets sue them. But that was stupid)

I did - I did it as soon as the let my posts through.

However, they just stopped the last one which is quite good.


"H&K" - are they vetting your posts? Do you get a 'Pending Approval message' when you post?

Yes. Thats what I ment when I said I was a parolee. But this is quite normal, somtimes its not a person that vets your post (I think)
To be honest its something that TGC have gotten right

Well, looks like there is still one missing reply.
I agree, it's a bit unfair of the moderators to be doing that with every post.

In comparison, Simon is a saint for allowing this thread to exist :)

@Mr Picklesworth
TGC do often have a younger market than BRL, (Concider FPS), and I think this sort of proactive moderatoring (HAHA), is better for that age group than the reactive moderatorfying (JAJA) we have here

Edit This make no sence now, you post deletor you ;)
Edit edit. Your doing that delibaratly arent you?

Hah!
You look like a complete lunatic, now!
:P

This thread is an important issue though. Plus, the conduct on their forum is in keeping with this forum.

I think my posts are sensible.

Plus, who will complain if I manage to get these two products back for Blitz users?

> Plus, who will complain if I manage to get
> these two products back for Blitz users?

I will! I've already filled in the forms, I just need your address and personal details to file the complaint.

Took them over half an hour to let my current post go through onto the forums.

Bribe them!

Well, I am now starting to wonder if that final comment is, in fact, the truth. I think it is all very sad.

I'm going to cancel my attempts to win back BlitzTree and BlitzGrass.

At the end of the day, if TGC buy out other products (such as 'giles' and 'T.ED') and remove them from Blitz users then the taking over of Aliencodec is our 'Poland'.


Case closed.

@Puki,

1) Dont repost the thread that was deleted from here. (I had posted on it recomendiong you changed it, but I think it was pulled before you saw it)

2) Stop posting so fast in the geek thread. Its not like the general thread here. It takes a lot longer to say things @TGC than here. Just slow down.

3) Our aim is to keep the thread near the top over several days/weeks (Well until its pulled or anwsered really). Not to keep it top over several mins.

4) Dont repost the thread that was deleted from here. (I know Ive already said that, but its important)

5) Calm down a bit. You are a fully sentient Patron level being, not an animal (Good old Brin;)

I didn't post fast - this is because of their post vetting system. My second post was a message to the moderator vetting the posts (I didn't know he would post it), the third one was an edit to my post - my edit had to go back through their vetting system, so they posted it as a new post.

Anyway, they have stopped vetting my posts now - I am off the leash.

Well puki. There seems to be a gap in the Blitz market now, with a quite a few potential customers.

Why don't you make your own tree system?

I'm not spending months writing my own tree system anyway I already have the full version of BlitzTree3D.

Just make small trees and call them grass. (jajajaja)

Well, I just got an email from TGC:



So job done for the moment.

I think it was my third post that swung it ;)

It now looks as if they are not going to go on sale

Rich's Post

No he is just pointing that out in relation to any issues with sales - ie TGC are resolving issues out of goodwill. However, he does point out that this is very low-priority, so we could be waiting a long time.

No puki,
What he does is "kill" the only reason given for TGC not to just "bury" the products

In all the thread, with all the things he could have picked he picks the ONLY One that says "Narrr it isnt a good idea to simply "Vanish" it, because of this" and says no "this" isnt a good reason .....(not to vanish it)

Diminishing market + Ease of a single page with two pay links + "Low Priority" + Stating "You have given no good reason not to spike this" = End of product