Was BlitzMax A Bad Idea?

before the Entity Guild drags me off to be decapitated, and my name forever erased from the annals of the Blitzian Historical Record... i'd just like to open a lil discussion on what struck me today as possibly a grave error in the direction that the whole Blitz saga has embarked upon...

now, this may sound strange coming from me... one who commonly regarded as second assistant to the high priest, at the right hand of the god of OOP... and seeing that Max has brought OOP to the previously unwashed masses, makes this statement seem even more amazing...

but it is not the OOP in 'Max that is the problem... this aspect is a good thing... it's the wholistic approach that Blitz is taking that gives me reason for pause...

... an approach that seems to do more to dilute the identity and presence of Blitz in the development scene, an approach that seems intent on relegating it to what amounts to merely another unremarkable coding option... and one that puts it in direct competition with the likes of MS Visual Studio Express... another tool for programming against interfaces (wrappers) to other 3D rendering and gaming 'engines'... a tool that is now available for free...

this thought dawned upon me as i read over the pending release of the next DarkBASIC SDK and a .net wrapper designed to allow you to use either vb or c# to now write your DB games...

now, grant it... anticpating Microsoft's decision to make the Express .net tools available free of charge would've been a true feat of prediction, maybe rivaled only by the great Nostradamus himself, i think that still, it might've been a smarter, safer, and more expeditious route, to update the existing Blitz3D to include some new (dx9) (shadows) (etc) features, and then to release an api, SDK sort of thing, accessible from a wide range of coding languages (c++, .net, delphi), so that the Blitz3D dev would have a pretty decent choice... making Blitz3D even more appealing to a greater audience...

seriously... BlitzMax will loose sales to a free .net every time... MS has done this before in other segments, offering free versions of their product nto the marketplace... now they've, and very smartly i may add, moved this practice into the indie coding segment...

... and in the long run this will be a bad thing for 'Max.

i think that Blitz will find itself on the wrong side of the equation in the not too distant future...

i think the DarkBASIC gang is to be applauded here... really... not only have they managed to maintain the simplicity of an entry level 3D BASIC programming tool... but while doing so, they've also been able to exploit the underpinnings of that, and not only make a next gen click and make tool (FPSC) based on it, but also to make available an attractive option to those devs who need a more advanced programming environment, with everything that the .net brings with it now available to the DB coder... now if they can get everything working like it's supposed to, but that's a different topic altogether...

but while they've been on the 'upswing', and made some right moves... we have been on sort of a lull... and, in my humble opinion, have made some moves, that in the short and long term, will prove to not be as good as what could've been...

i really feel that too much time and effort is being devoted in the wrong direction by the Blitz dev team... i'm a loyal Blitzer... not a fanboy, mind you... just a loyal Blitz coder who likes the language... but i feel that i must make this statement...

the future is not hard to 'see'... it has already happened... i have seen the day come to pass, when someone has written a BlitzMax wrapper to the Dark Game SDK... and that day has happened a few months from now...


ok... let the lambasting begin... you may throw your rotten tomatoes and eggs at the speaker now...


--Mike

Fair enough. I look forward to speaking to you on "The game creators web pages". jajajajajaja

I just use the product. The Reason I use the Product is that I want oop, and I want Basic.

Release a wrapper for darkDame, if its anygood Ill use it, if not I wont. (In fact I have Dark game SDK, so I suppose I could wrap it)

BMax, is a nitce(sic) program anyway, so maybe you are wrong. (Maybe you are right)

Most (ok not most, but lots),of this site seems to be "Things that are wrapped from c++", so maybe we "Should" all move over to that anyway.

I agree, its a good thing to speculate about. But If I could see the future, I would own some of Microsoft

I asked previously if there were any sales figures for BMax in the Public domain. Maybe with them we could see if its already happening?

Edit. As Big said. And the "Flagship" product is still blitz3d.

EDitEdit. Tell you one thing though, I dont think I could go back to Blitz3d, (Or PB, which is what I used before). So if max3d doesnt appear or is not up to scratch, Id have to move to a different oop language/Implimentation

Hmm, well, I personally view max as in a completely different class from all the other blitz languages that have gone before it. That is, Blitz3D etc. have traded on the fact that they're easy to use and have appealed to people with little or no previous programming experience. I don't think this can be said of bmax.

Bmax's complexities (I'm not just talking about the actual language here) are extremely off-putting for this type of 'beginner' coder, I'd imagine. Hell, I'm not a beginner and even I'm put off getting stuck into bmax.

Previous blitz languages seemed to have had a very specific application i.e. writing games with as little complexity/difficulty as possible. I don't think this can be used to describe bmax - it seems much more of a general purpose language, and, as you say, there are many other (better?) options available in this field.

You're wayyyy behind me, I said all this years ago :P ( And got severely flamed for it too, as memory serves, despite the good intentions, so get your asbestos underpants on.

Ultimately I'm very happy with the language, MaxGUI, Max2D and a few other issues aside, but then I was never really concerned that the product wouldn't appeal to me. I was concerned it wouldn't appeal to it's core audience, which - despite what this forum would have you believe - has always been beginners who want to make games as easily as possible.

But ultimately that's none of my/your/our business, and if BRL wanted to move away from the beginner audience towards a more advanced audience, that's entirely their choice. I totally see your reason for mentioning it, because - again despite what this forum will try to tell you - every user is directly affected by how popular and successful the product is, but it's out of our control, whether we like it or not.

In fact I've come to a point where I'm having to make a similar decision, whether to play it safe and keep appealing to the same people or take a huge gamble and try and carve out a new audience from scratch by doing what I really want to do. I'm not yet committed to that course of action, but it looks as though I'm probably going to take the huge gamble, kiss goodbye to the old audience and start all over again too, so it would be hypocritical of me in the extreme to criticize. Although ( obviously? ) my decision won't affect anyone but me.

BlitzMax is good and all but the biggest problem is that it's 3d part is too late, if it was out and working BlitzMax would be very popular language. If only Mark would speed up and release something, you'd be asking for forgivness BigRed and you'd be gladly kissing his feet asking to be accepted in whole Blitz Famillia ;) That's all there is to it, if Max3d was out you'd be happy workin on whatever you have envisioned. Mark if you read this don't be let down by negative comments, you do good work, just speed it up a little bit :)

IF you take BlitzMax as "another product", you might get more comfortable.

It took me a lot of time learning it, but not the language itself, but the horrible doc, thanks to the tuts I can get into it......

I agree, I think updating Blitz3D to DX9 would have been more welcomed and appreciated by the community and at the same time more beneficial to Blitz.com in the way of sales.

There wasn't much wrong with the blitz language or its stability, OOP is great agreed but what needed attention more was an up to date rendering engine with all the DX9 bells and whistles...so continuing Blitz's greatest strength which is a simple basic language coupled with a fast(ish) rendering engine giving you fast results with minimal coding.

Now what we have in Max is a language whose complexity is approaching C/C++ but with no 3D abilities unless you use a 3rd party rendering engine...some people may well choose to use those 3rd party engines and C++ since they know C++ already and not BMax.

[Edit] I hope in time (when the 3DMax renderer is complete) to eat my words but I think Blitz.com lost the plot.

You're all gay!

No doubt the release of the 3D module will placate many of the existing/experienced coders here, but I don't see what difference it'll make to new coders who want an easy way into making their own games. I thought such people were the main customers of previous blitz languages?

I'm a bit surprised that BRL have seemingly abondoned this lucrative userbase.

..I'm on Red side, whatever it takes..as usually :)

I thought you were asked to stop trying to get a date on the forums :P

I doubt it. Don't you find that whatever BRL give to people, 99% of everybody is always "going to put my project on hold and wait for <insert name> to be released".

They can still use Blitz3D if they find it easier, but Blitz3D is more than 4 years old now and things have to move on for those of us that want to.

I think times and goals have changed, to be honest. Blitzmax does not appear to be aimed at absolute beginners, but perhaps that's just because the manual leaves a lot to assumption.

I've personally struggled with the concept of OO, but I think that's mostly down to bad habits I've picked up through using Blitz3D.

On the topic of new coders, I think it wouldn't be such a problem if Max had better documentation. When I first used Blitz (+) I probably only managed to create something because the documentation gave loads of examples.

lol. Yeah, there is that. :)

That's the thing: blitz3D and blitz+ are no longer being developed. I can't see too many newcomers wanting to buy products that're past their sell by date. I'm assuming that these products will simply be dropped from sale, at some point.

I'm happy enough with blitz3d/blitzplus myself, and am unlikely to purchase blitzmax. One of the things that puts me off blitzmax, apart from its higher level of complexity, are all the issues I read about in the forums such as 'mouse lag' in directx, poor opinions of the default IDE among other problems. I've probably been spoilt though as I came to blitz quite late and so upon purchasing blitz3d/blitzplus/blitzbasic I assume most of the problems and issues must have been solved by the time I bought them - I didn't get around to purchasing blitz3d until it was at around update 1.83. The supposed lack of good documentation also puts me off purchasing blitzmax - also the various sticky topics for beginners in the blitzmax forums I've got no idea just how out of date or current they actually are and whether the tips/help in them are still applicable.

The only other reason I can think why I don't want to purchase blitzmax is because blitz3d/blitzplus do everything I need from them so I have no need to buy another language.

(off topic - was there going to be a networking library/module released for blitzmax at some point?)

Well, Blitz3D has had five or six updates since they "stopped developing it".

But anyway, even if it is no longer being updated, that doesn't mean it has all of a sudden become unusable.

It doesn't HAVE to be any more complex than Blitz3D.
They fixed that about a month ago.
The IDE is actually no worse than the Blitz3D IDE. And if that's not enough, there's BLIde which is coming along very nicely, is free, and is almost on a par with the likes of Protean.
Every piece of software you'll ever buy will have 'problems' somewhere. In the case of Blitzmax, just buy it now if you're going to - that way you can start to get your head around its 'high level of complexity'.

True, but they've almost exclusively been bug fix updates, I think.

Also true, I just imagine any potential new customers coming to this site will be put off buying when they discover the product is no longer being developed. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd certainly think twice if I was in that position.

Granted, its going to need a hefty price cut at some point...

Actually the whole OO-thing made me less productive.. not because it's hard, not because I don't like it, but because I'm always thinking like "hm.. if I invest some time in designing it well it'll save me a headache in the future" And so I just don't start apps, I only do little components which I rejudge every time I use them. Then I come to the conclusion that I've started all wrong (not modular and self-contained enough) and I redo the whole component again. This way, real apps never show up. To compare with: in my B+ days I did my fastest map-editor in less than 1.5 hour, and that was including stamp-editing/placement!

But I can't blame BMax for this, it's a typical thing of any OO-language I guess.. the 'strive for perfection, to do everything perfect, no room for mistakes' :P

yeah it's still usable, Blitz3D that is... i'm still using it, but that's not quite the point, is it... it's based on technology and practices that are all but extinct...

while DBis still steeped in the the practice of procedural coding, it has at least managed to offer a means by which the core api can be accessed in more current programming languages, which makes it all of a sudden, up to date, from a coders perspective...

a dx9 fix and an sdk would do wonders for the aging Blitz3D... that way, i could still use Blitz3D SDK and code in c++, or maybe even a .net language... leaving the Max3D module to wait till dx10 is finalized, which is what i think is part of what's happening anyway...

this approach seems to make far more sense than the path we are following now...

--Mike

It seems BRL are firmly rooted in the business of producing self-contained programming languages. Maybe branching out into licencing out engine/sdk/api stuff doesn't interest them, for whatever reason.

Well, TBH, I only have BlitzMax, so I can use Blitz in Linux. As far as Windows, I still operate in Blitz 3D. No big change there, I don't believe...

"We"? Since when are you part of BRL?

---

Sorry, that cheeky response was the first thing that popped into my head. That aside, I tentatively agree with your point. I say tentative because I have not used BMax yet (waiting for the 3D module blah blah) but, assuming that what you and others here have pointed out is true, then I would agree that BMax is maybe moving in the wrong direction. When I started using Blitz3D, it was because it wasn't C++; all the 3D game development features I needed wrapped up in a simple to use/program package. What really nailed me was big10's post:


*raises hand* I am among the mass of users who found Blitz3D intensely appealing because I had little previous programming experience.

we= the faithfull following...

:)

--Mike

What jhocking said, but the main reason I was able to catch up to Blitz2d/3d was because of its numerous documentation samples, examples, and included tech-demo/programs, from what I've been reading BMax is missing a bit in the doc. area.
(appears harder to navigate as well when I screwed around with the demo at school)

Also what Big10 said, I like the idea that the Blitz products are self-contained, no outside programs required (well, aside from media-creation tools) to make the most of the language, aside from your IDE of choice.

In my mind, they didn't miss the point, just BRL needs to work on making a better/more in-depth introduction to beginners besides user-made tutorials and what not on websites.
(somethng along the line of Krylar's B2d book but in a documentation form, that was an excellent read)

I love Blitz3D like a dog loves a big, fat, juicy, old bone.

From my point of view it doesn't matter so much what BlitzMax is or isn't capable of, as much as what I can make it do. You're talking as if all good products spring forth automatically if BlitzMax itself is good. This is not the slightest bit true and is just a newtonian victim way of looking at things. If you are a creative person, you know that creativity flows FROM you and whatever tool you are using is just a medium through which it flows. If you have a mastery of that medium, it's not that you have a familiarity with the language and are good at putting it together without syntax errors, but that you can express something greater than the language through it and using it.

Saying that Max is lacking or is heading in the wrong direction is like saying that the success of it depends entirely on its own merit and not on what it is used for. It is not a standalone icon in a box on a shelf for everyone to worship. What about the community? What about the enthusiasm? What about the history? What about the creativity of its users? Just as hitler would've been nothing if the masses didn't allow themselves to buy into his attitude, so too would Blitz be nothing if us users didn't allow it to be. A product doesn't acquire an audience based on how worthy it is of an audience, it gets an audience from the audience's choice to resonate with the product and relate to it. If the product is pitched at a large enough chunk of the people, and meets enough of their subjective needs, then big dollar signs to it. That said, it's not all about the money, or all about the bigtime success, or the competition, or the being on the top of the heap.

I agree there are other languages, maybe more commonly used mainstream languages, which some people think are better languages, but I find them boring and generalized. Blitz has always had a strong tradition of being largely game focussed but also spreading into applications too. It's a nice mix of Basic and other elements, is relatively easy to understand, looks nicer, and behaved pretty well. I get results with it quickly and I overlook any shortcomings because if I didn't I'd just be a slave to it. How can you be creative with something if, when there is a small roadblock, it halts you in your tracks? That Blitz is good has nothing to do with any inherant qualities, except that it may get out of your way enough to allow your vision to flow through it, and I think it does that very well. It makes things easier than any other language I've used including other Blitz's. Who cares what features the competition has or doesn't have. It's not their product that determines their success, it's the kind of people that choose to use it. Not to say Max isn't great by itself, but it would be nothing without us folks.

So instead of pointing the finger at BlitzMax to try to find reasons why it's a bad idea or something gone wrong or a poor direction, why don't you start out pointing the finger at yourself.

How can bmax be going in the wrong direction, it's the best architecture Mark has put together to date!

Even without OOP, I find BMAX's syntax leaps and bound better than the old b3d.

I wouldn;t change a thing in it's current configuration.

As far as the 3D module is concerned, I think you will see alot of the better features of B3D and new and improved things that was never possible on the old architecture.

So to recap, bmax all the way.. keep at it Mark, great job!

i think that the last two replys are from a narrow perspective on things...

reasons... objective, cold hard factual reasons are as follows...

1- given a choice between BMax (app $100) and vb.net (app $0), both similar coding languages, vb more mainstream OOP, vb more documented... well, what do you think an average indie coder might opt for... i would give the advantage here to vb.net...

2- blitz3d is supposed to be the premier, flagship product... well, where is it's successor... we are left to languish in the middle earth of not having one, searching and hoping for a usable 3rd party 3D module...

3- finally, noone said blitzmax was going in the wrong direction Sash... what i said, and if you'd read it without injecting anything else into it, was that the whole direction that the devs are moving us towards is wrong... Blitz3D was a solid performer... enhance that, make it available to a wider audience (via an sdk) for those who want to use the latest tools to code against it... then go ahead with the 'maxes...

right now all we have is a language that is in direct competition for the hearts and minds with other languages... others that are firmly entrenched in the minds of programmers (c++, vb.net, c#, java)... before blitz3d was unique... bmax doesn't have that compelling uniqueness that B3D had...

why use bmax to code irrlicht based 3D apps, for example, when you can just as easily use c++, or vbnet for free... or java... or delphi...

those of you expecting to see the BMax 3D module by decemeber may be sadly dissapointed... too many things have yet to be finalized regarding the future of directx, as well as this osx dual binary thing for that to happen... and even if it does show up, to assume it will be usable for game development right off the bat, well, that's just being overly optimistic at least...

as far as mark's abilities here, that has nothing whatsoever to do with this disscussion... so that can be left out... we all know what he's given us in the past... that's not even a factor here...

try and detach your emotions from the discussion for a second and take an object, pragmatic view at the existing circumstances as they are right now... your replys would be more relevant to the topic, and be more conducive to providing a valid viewpoint... reardless of the position you take...


--Mike

I agree with Red, and think that C# covers much of the same ground and is a lot more portable. Gaining a lot of momentum, and I guess DarkBasic will have the advantage of being portable to Xbox 360 before long. (360 is getting a c# SDK for indies within the next few months).

If BlitzMax is `at least` as good a language as Blitz3D, which it is, then that it appeals to a wider general programming audience above and beyond how Blitz3D did is a feather in its cap, not something that waters it down. Who cares if it doesn't compete solely or as strongly as other generic languages on that level. As far as I'm concerned it's still a kick-ass game development language. Maybe what you're longing for is wanting to be `special`.

but right now, it isn't... it doesn't have any 3D functions or commands... how can you say that Dan...

it's not about me Daniel... it's about 3D game development...

besides... i am special... my mommy told me so a looooong time ago :)

--Mike

I agree 100% with Red - BlitzMax is not and will never have the immediacy and broadbase appeal of a language like Blitz3d.
With free versions of Visual Express C#,vb etc and Managed DirectX the only real advanatage of BM would be it's cross platform capability. The disadvantages would be many.
C# and the current crop of .net based languages leave BlitzMax way behind in the OOP stakes.
For example why buy BlitzMax and then use the TrueVision 3d wrapper when you could do exactly the same with c# for free and have a really good pro-quality tried & tested IDE and tools to work with ? And you get the Whole windows gui at your fingertips.
c# with Managed DirectX is as easy as Blitz3d !!! For people who have not used or seen how simple it is should really take a look - languages like BlitzMax and DBPro are no longer necessary and conversly are now the more expensive option !

BlitzMax was not a bad idea - just a bridge too far it seems - to discontinue development of Blitz3d was a very bad idea.

that's a verrry good point of view... better than the one i proposed... i should've put it that way when asking the original question...

--Mike

I think BMax's position is pretty good, actually.

It has more of a focus on community contributions than previous languages, and so far that hasn't disappointed. The number of 3d engine wrappers and other excellent modules available are excellent, and, unlike other languages with similarly big communities, it is a breeze to set up.

It's not necessarily a beginner language, but with a bit of work (some kind of beginner module pack containing minib3d and some other things?) it could become easy enough for anyone to use.

Basically I think blitz research ltd need to employ somone.. contract them to be precise. Contract them in to wrap up blitzmax and make it more presentable for a wider audience.

At the moment I don't even bother trying to look at the documents, they are so bad. Sorry to whome ever is making them, and implimenting them into the IDE.. but to be honest they are dire.

Aswell as this, all the community modifications to the modules need to be intergrated. There are so many fixes and addons for max2d and the fact they havnt been added to the official modules is bizzare.

Now saying all this, the language is still excellent. I find it very effecient to program with. It is more enjoyable programming in bmax.

So basically, just sort out the IDE and docs .. and this language is ready to roll.

I've said this ever since Blitzmax was released, Blitz's appeal has been simplicity with power and speed. You could do a lot while only having to know a little and not getting bogged down in a lot of high concept stuff or jargon. You can understand it and do it yourself, just like in the old days!

BlitzMax is not user friendly at all, is too complex and delivers too little. That's why BlitzMax is the only Blitz product I haven't bought (and I own BB, B+ and B3D). What can I do in BlitzMax (using the functionality provided by BlitzMax) that I cannot do in B3D or B+?

If I want a programming enviroment that let's me use OOP, Basic sysntax, and have access to everything in Windows then there is Visual Studio and Visual Basic 2005. VB is better than BMax at everything, has all the high concept stuff and is consequently more difficult to use than B3D or B+ but BlitzMax is no easier and lacks masses of features.

IMHO Blitzmax was huge plunge in totally the wrong direction and seemed to misunderstand what created the attaraction for the userbase in the first place.

I will now stand with my legs spread to be stoned to death by the BMax fanboys but you cannot deny Blitz development and interest in it has very much died off since the inception of Blitz Max.

IMHO Blitz has been dead for sometime and is just fading away ATM while TGC have propsered by understanding what their community wanted and giving it to them.

Darkheart

Personally, I thought BlitzMax was gonna be just like Blitz3D but faster and using both OpenGL/DX9 for better compatability/rendering options.

It seems Max is very complex and the late 3D module is definitely causing some people to grumble. I for one own it but I'm waiting until it gets a 3D command set/functionality on par with Blitz3D. When this happens, I will permanently switch to Max. Until then I'm not going to "hone my skills" by coding in Max. I'll keep using Blitz3D for the time being. I bought Blitz3D because it lets me do what I'm here to do, and that is create.

In regards to Max, I must admit that seeing all these import .brl stuff and Tthis and Tthat internal types are confusing to me to say the least. Hey! Download my .mod and download this and update that or include this module so you can do that is just beyond me atm. I think it's far to complex than what it should be. I do like the sync mods thing. It should all be automated like that for sure. A physics engine module would be nice too (MaxPhysics).

I'm sorry but I can't give any props to the DarkBasic guys. They turned DB into a corporate monster. You buy DBPro then have to buy additional "packs" at $20 a pop just to get functionality that should have been in the language in the first place. It's highway robbery and I feel sorry for all their customers that get swindled daily. Buy this media pack, buy this dev tool, buy this DBPro pack so you can have Easy Rotation and Multiplayer! It's all rubbish. They should be ashamed. Do the math: add up the cost of DBPro and all the DBPro Packs. It's insane and they're trying to drain every cent they can get out of the indie developer.

Mark is more honest and straight forward. He puts out the superior product. Now for those that can't figure it out. As soon as the Max3D module is released and the initial bugs squashed, all will be peachy in Blitz Land.

BlitzMax is in it's infancy.

Yep. That's what I was getting at.

Darkheart: uhm, but why couldn't you do simple 'oldfashioned' code in BMax then? No-one forces you to use the new stuff compared to classic Blitz.. (OO, incbin, pointers, (super)strict etc.)

I don't really think the simplicity is something classic-blitz-only. Perhaps in BMax one tends to create bigger games than in classic Blitz due it's capabillities to manage big stuff somewhat better.

Let's say, I don't consider myself an A-grade coder, it's just fun messing around, and I usually do small tools for x-development @ my humble MSX. At least I don't compare myself with some of the coders here who've experience in C, C++, C#, even asm! But yet I find Bmax quite pleasant to work with, and apart from the 'his royal n00bness' aka 'the manual', I don't think BMax is very hard.. might take a few days to get used to the superstrict'ness and all the differences compared to B+/3d.. but alas.. how hard can that be..?

2ct.

What a rip-roaring topic for a thread!

BS!! I will agree that Blitz is in a transitional period. You have Blitz3D which yet dated, still delivers. And then you have Max which is very promising but a bit too complex and has no 3d module yet.

Either updating Blitz3D to DX9 or releasing Max3D will fix the problem.

But there's no fixing TGC. They suck the cash outta you like a Hoover and give you a language that can't do anything at a decent framerate.

Red...I have to make an observation here.

You may have good intentions here but...

It seems your vision of your sub game is falling short and you're looking for someone to blame. You can't find a language or dev tool that satisfies you. What you NEED to do is just use the available technology and finish your game or it will linger on for years.

GO FINISH YOUR SUB GAME! =x

while that may seem to be an apparent reason for the thread... you might take the following into consideration as to why you just might be wrong...

1- my sub game and the announcement of the availability of the .net wrappers for the new DarkGameSDK are coincidental, and not connected in any way... take me and my project out of the equation, and the same set of circumstances still exist...

2- if anyone is to blame for anything concerning my project, it s me, and only me...

3- blitz3d is, by the company's own statement, supposed to be the flagship product... one would expect the flagship product to have a greater slice of the pie, so to speak, and not be relegated to the position of has been... especially when it still has a lot of potential...

4- even if mark were to announce tommorrow that a blitz3d sdk would be forthcoming, that wouldn't magically make my project an overnite occurance...

5- i'm still coding a blitz3d version of my project... regardless of what else develops... this topic has nothing to do with my project...

5- can you deny the fact that blitz3d needs updating... it needed it months ago... if only to add some stuff that would keep it current...

simply put, there is no 3D engine available from blitz that allows us to take advantage of some of the stuff that not only me, but others here see as almost a prerequisite to making a 3D game that the current gaming audience expects... it's not just me... approach a major publisher with a blitz3d game... see what the results would be...

Blitz Max is great stuff... but developing it at the expense of the flagship product was, in my opinion, a mistake... Blitz3d has so much going for it... especially user loyalty... a pretty large base of loyal users... to leave them 'out in the ocld' making wrappers for 3rd party 3D engines, is gonna make a few of them turn to something else...

also... you can't deny that the .net languages are in direct 'competition' to BMax... and currently outperform it on many levels... this is a fact, not an opinion...

plus, they have the weight of the great bill behind em... to enter into direct competition with em is surely a loosing proposition... MS can afford to give away it's languages to the entire indie market, and not loose a penny in the process... i doubt if blitz can do the same...

the uniqueness that made Blitz3D noteworthy is fading fast...

this, and only this is the reason why i opened up a discussion on this topic... to get other opinions... relevant opinions based on fact, not suppositions based on fanboyism...

i'm surprised that you would suggest that my motives are so self centered... if i didn't have some loyalty to blitz, i would've already licensed the Lawmaker engine (affordable)







or unigine (more expensive, but)



or went with irrlicht and a few libs for sound and networking using c++, or dot net...


i'll be honest... i'm tired of waiting for the blitz max 3D module... i need something to work with now...
i could've written something using the dx api and their sdk in all the time i've wasted so far...

an update to Blitz3D could've been up and productive by now... and we would all be happy...

--Mike

Max is almost everything I ever wanted from Blitz. Yeah there's no built in 3D but a lot of us are happy to have the compiler and 2D while we're waiting for it - I think Mark made the right decision in releasing Max when he did. Max REALLY is no more complex than previous Blitz's. It can be if you want to dig, but you can do the old stuff without any extra effort.

Unfortunately, the crummy docs don't make this at all obvious.

aaaaaand the mudslinging begins

countdown to lock:

10

Heh, I dont think any mudslinging will be occuring, the thread just doesn't seem to be the one heading that way...


And Red, hurry up with the editting, I want to hear your opinion. :P

Regardin DB & .net wrappers though......if you can do that, why not just code completely in C# using other SDKs?

What Chroma said!!!

Stop splashing in the water Red and get that sucker done!!!!! Stop creating threads, stop wasting time, some of us are waiting to play a demo!

new stuff has been added... i'm plugging away at it... but i would love it to be a graphically rich as say Doom3 or Quake 4... having to settle for dx7 based graphics, no shadowing, nice looking, but un shadered water, is always a distraction though... especially while browsing the media keeping abreast of the latest 3d news, i see this stuff all over the place... stuff that could easily be within out grasp...

it's really frustrating...


@ Genexi... i have started... the same OO framework i started on with Blitz3D... here's an example of the exact same framework implemented in vb.net... and a 3D object, with bumpmapping, in it...



and here's the code that uses the framework to produce the scene above, and have it service itself in response to engine events...

Module MyGame
   Public WithEvents myGame As New Game

    Public Sub main()
        myGame.Run()
    End Sub

    Public Sub init() Handles myGame.Init_Game
        Dim aTestObject As New TestClass
        myGame.ShowLoadingMsg()
        myGame.ShowSkyBox()
    End Sub

    Public Sub run() Handles myGame.Run_Game
        'you don't need nothing here, the objects can take care of themselves
    End Sub

End Module

the object is derived from an abstract gameobject class in the game engine itself... the class has a few methods that are abstract and serve only to be implemented by the descendants or to allow descendants to receive events from the engine so they can automatically update themselves...

a lot easier and more streamlined if written in an OO language, as opposed to my Blitz3D hack... the Blitz3D api in c++ would be so much easier to accomplish something like this... i'd settle for that, without the dx9 stuff... but we can have both... we should've had both... before full time 'max development was underway...


--Mike

BPlus was good fun but not good enough for modern Pro games (due to lack of effects, it may have been fine 2 years ago). C++ takes ages to do anything in. Luckily BMax has everything you need to make a pro game using 3D card technology in a 2D game, and it's very easy to use and quick to get stuff working in (once you figure it out). The OO side is way better than not having it in BPlus and B3D. I'm sure when the 3D module comes out and gets debugged, people will flock to it and drop B3D like a big fat stone.

yes GA... but until then...

we sit and wait... holding our 'projects' in our hands... chasing wet dreams like Aurora, and wrapping other peoples 3D engines... not my idea of why i should license BMax in the first place... 6 months is a long time to wait and whine... and you've heard me whine before... you know it's not a pretty sight nor sound :)

besides, i don't think BMax actually does have everything you need... can you raise events, override virtual abstract methods of a base class... (seriously, can you, i really don't know not having licensed the latest 'max) these are things that are really essential (to me anyways) to making the basis for a sound OOP based game engine... or for that matter, any serious project...

this is why a lot of projects get aborted after the initial rush of enthusiastic coding... the code soon builds up and becomes unweildly and unmanageable without a good solid OO base code, plus the mechanisms to allow these classes to implement and service themselves without additional effort on the part of the coder...

that's what OO is all about...

then add to that, after all; that work... no matter how well the gameplay is... you still have stuff that, inspite of the work of some very talented people, falls short of what the newer graphics dx9 affords us... (meanwhile we spin our wheels trying to implement shadows, fake shader effects, etc)

a dx9 enabled Blitz3D would've been great... soon, we'll be two generations, no... make that 3 generations behind the graphics power curve... dx10 is sure to move us back a few more notches...

i mean... isn't this obvious.. or am i just on a big whining tantrum again... my time of the month?

i really don't think so... whine... whine :)



--Mike

I don't wait as I'm not ready for 3D yet :-) I still love 2D so I'm alright Jack.

yep. In fact if you couldn't, there'd be no point in making them abstract...

Very good post, Red.

I personally have been waiting a bit before taking the plunge on Max. The demo was pretty decent, but the strength of Max is in it's cross-platform capabilities, and direct path to the graphics stuff.

The feedback I see on the forums here isn't entirely encouraging on either front.

I just get the impression that BlitzMax doesn't know where it wants to belong. It's real strengths just aren't all that strong yet.

Personally, I think the Max compiler should compile to an already available intermediate language, such as Java's JVM, and/or .Net's CLR. That would solve quite a few cross-platform issues and open up a few other platforms as options.

Since intermediate language looks the same on all platforms, I imagine it would make the compilers a bit easier to maintain as well.

All that time spent doing those things could be spent working on new stuff, such as a 3D module.

Just a thought anyway.

So.. to answer your question...

Not a bad idea...

Perhaps bad execution.

Still, not long to go before Cobra is released.

Let me summarise my previous post more visually:

Blitz 3D put you in an stripped down race car, dumped you on the track and screamed "GO!" in your ear, leaving you to charge around and compete with other racers.

Blitzmax puts you in a Volvo and makes you are the Manual (translated from the Japense version by a dyslexic 10 year old) and Safety Information (in Danish) first while promising you that your F1 car may eventually arrive the following year during visits to the pits.

I want my crazy dream machine!

Darkheart

LOL at puki

I'm serious - some people wanted BMax to be Blitz3D with some of the features of Cobra - all in a familar environment/language.

-Red, you can always call the B3d version a prototype and then port it over to Max3d or one of those other engines that you have your eyes on.
This way you will have a good idea of what to do when you move over to the final version, and any errors can be found before it's too late via the prototype.


-We have an already available intermediate language: Assembler code :P


-BlitzMax being different from B3d is the reason why B3d still exists after all this time.
I think the language can be sort of associated with a less evil DarkBasic. Things like 3d are released in modules, but these modules tend to be much more complete and featureful. (Thus, they take longer to make).
It's not trying to beat out C++ as industry standard; only a moron or a really rich person would attempt to blatantly do something like that.
BlitzMax appeals to those who loath Java for its difficult learning curve and lack of various features (DLLs?!!!) and try to avoid C++ since it can be... scary to use.
I use C++ when needed for DLLs and web plugins, but for anything which I have a choice about I will use B3d or BMax.

I think BlitzMax is perfect for people like me, who don't want to mess with C++ (not much anyway) or C#.. with .not (or .net - whatever) or anything...
BMax is just as complex as you make it yourself; easy or hard - you decide.. :)

I'm not quite exactly sure what all the fanfare is about those screenshots up above, it's still the same old same old flat-walled maze-room with texturemapping. Ok so it has bumps and light and stuff, whoopdedoo. It's not what the engine can do, it's what you can do with it. I don't think this is anything to write home about.

there's no fanfare Daniel... and, if all you can see is just bumps and lights and stuff... then your reply is understandable...

--Mike

I keep asking myself the same question. Regardless of 3d engine or not, c# is very enticing.

B3D is cuter than C#.

that's the only sound reason i can see so far in this thread...

:)

and you all know we're in deep kimshi when puki starts sounding like the only voice of reason around here...

*** runs and hides before puk reads this ***

--Mike

I am the Large

I'd just Use SOW with Bmax, if you want next gen graphics and Blitz like ease of use, without paying any extra on top of Bmax.

sow?

OGRE...

btw, how is SOW coming along...

--Mike

On the "was BM a bad idea":

I don't think so. But I think it was too rushed out. The language still has some major design flaws from the professional point of view, which at least so far don't even seem to be of interest for BRL to be fixed. (private - public in types, delegates/method pointers, ...)
Until these parts are fixed, BM is, out of my sight, no "professional oriented" language but a play language ...

It's coming along nicely.
Could use a community, though ;)

Gnaaaagh! I thought I'd better give it a look and, being on dial up, that meant getting hold of a coverdisk with the VS Express suite on. But did they think to include the DX SDK with it? No. So "Gnaaaagh!" again.

But yeah, I have some sympathy with the original post - BMax currently does too much stuff I don't want and not enough I do. If the 3D module is kickass it might redress the balance (but, then again, someone might covermount DX SDK in the meantime). For those it suits Max is probably phenomenal, but I don't feel that I'm part of the intended userbase just yet, much as I'd like to say otherwise.

No!

I almost did this myself. It's true at a basic level, but I found C# was a bit more difficult to manage ( for me, anyway ) when it came to developing anything bigger. Plus TV3D is written in C++ so the .Net version is a wrapper, and at least if I use it in BlitzMax, I have the wrapper source and can decide how I want things to work for myself.

It's a close call though.

Eh? I managed to get both dx and win sdk's on dialup within 2 weeks. It's not impossible and it's the most important sdk's if your programming in virtually any language on Windows.

I think, at the end I agree with Mike.


Wouldn't have been better making a Blitz3D complete rewrite
to update it to Dx9?

By now, there could be some kind of "Blitz3Dx9" already in the market ...

... because, and correct if I'm wrong, I think I speak
for everyone if I say the only thing we want is
>3D-power in our hands with ease of use< and this would have been
B3D updated to dx9 with a bit more of freedom
in the language ... not more, not less ... and it could have
been a faster and/or better move for Blitz Research.


I'm not waiting the max3D module, I'm going to finish my
game in B3D no matter how much dated it is, I only hope max3D
fills the expectations of being a good successor of B3D.


Paolo.

I agree - but I think Mark got too ambitious.

Max is simply B3D with OO features and more expandibility, exactly what people were crying out for when B3D was the only option.

I don't get people who say Max is too confusing. The OO implementation is about as simple as it gets. If you don't want to use OO, just use the lanaguage as you would B3D. It's the same.

B3D is fine at what it does, but for large scale projects it's just too limited. How many people here have actually attempted large scale projects in B3D, and not just messed about with it, trying to create cool effects?

Max3D is coming to the market just at the right time too. Only now are cards maturing enough to allow games that make heavy use of shaders to actually run fast enough.

>Max3D is coming to the market just at the right time too. Only now are cards maturing enough to allow games that make heavy use of shaders to actually run fast enough.

Agreed on that, you are correct, but most of us just want to have it right now :)

What if B3D could use Max3D for rendering ?

8)

That would be interesting. Is that doable?

Double post

I think OO makes things easier to handle and can therefore open up for more advanced games.

Isn't the argument that gameplay presides over graphics common here?
Why are the people who make that argument also posting here about how they would rather have a DX9 B3d than an enhanced, object oriented eventual B3d replacement?
(Though, come to think of it, when did Mark mention completely replacing B3d with Max?)

I agree with everyhting Simonh said.

I think B3D IS coming to the end of the line - a re-write from the ground up was needed to allow expansion and that re-write is Max.

Red - First off, I just want to say I love sub games. We are talking LOVE sub games. Please, please, don't get discouraged and finish your game. I've been wanting to play it ever since you showed some 'way back when' screenshots. I can still go back and play Playstation 1 games, Nintendo 64 games or Dreamcast games and have a great time. Yes, the graphics are aged, but who cares? They were stylized and vibrant, if it's pleasing to look at then who gives a crap if it is the latest and greatest. Think of Blitz3D the same way, yes it isn't the latest and greatest, but it's still very good for what it is, and for this reason you should just go balls out and finish what you started, not because it's going to redefine the world of sub simulations but simply because you set out to do something. And if it was worth starting it's worth finishing. Besides, it would make all us looking forward to it mighty happy :]

That said, when Max first came out I scrambled over to the link as fast as I could shove the 1's and 0's through my DSL line. When I got to the info page, I hastily read through it expecting "Normal maps! Per-Pixel lighting!" etc. When I saw it was a 2d only system I went WTF they have got to be kidding!

Sweet, wonderful, I'm so glad BRL made a programming language that's more powerful and more versatile. IT CAN STILL ONLY DO 2D! It's like putting a supercharged V8 on a car frame with no wheels...what the hell were they thinking?! No one wants 2D stuff anymore, we had all that years ago. Blitz3D is good because you can have something that looks decent in under an hour, and that is what makes it so good. It seems only logical to keep the same structure, make it faster, and give it all the latest directX 9 abilities!

I work at gastronaut studios making xbox 360 games, and it's so easy for me to add all this next gen stuff to my work with our framework. It's wonderful! But when I get home and I want to do all that with Kingdom Elemental...I can't, not because the technology isn't there but simply because no one has added it to b3d yet. It's just such a shame.

I agree completely with what Red said, Blitz is falling behind, and fast. Max would have been wonderful if they came out with it AFTER the Dx9.0 module for B3d. So just like any good project, if you want something done faster you hire more people. I'm all about the solo projects, but is Mark doing this as a hobby or because he's trying to run a successful business here? My loyalty is diminishing rapidly. BlitzMax was a mistake, and though we have all made fun little programs with it, no one can do anything with it that they cannot do with another program, just as Red said. After I'm done with Kingdom Elemental, if I don't have a better option with blitz or at LEAST a message from Mark, "Hey, hang in there people, I'll have Max3d done soon..." then I'm off to another place where promises are kept and companies actually want to stay in business.

Two weeks? Brilliant. It's not impossible (who said it was?), but it is impractical for me: A fifteen hour download when my service terminates every two hours... even with a trustworthy d/l manager I wouldn't have the time faff around orchestrating that either over a straight couple of days or a fortnight of partial downloads (even if I left my computer on, which I don't; and even if my d/l manager didn't screw up if you power down, which it does).

You must have something better to do than chastise folk for prefering a CD to a troublesome FIFTEEN HOUR download. What a bonkers post! :D


Quite. So you'd think someone would've thought to stick it on the disc with VS Express, wouldn't you?


The notion that Max works on a two tier basis doesn't really hold true, which is a pity because I was under the impression that such was the original idea. I mean, I know my way around B3D but could I get "After" functionality out of the Max demo when I tried it? No. Because there is no "After"; there is only please-write-your-own-After-command-in-an-OO-compliant-way, which is keeping neither Max's complexity nor OO optional in my book. Max is more complex than B3D - just bite the bullet and say it.


I hope not, because graphics are terribly important to any developer who wants people to give their game a go rather than recoil in disgust and try something prettier.

I'm telling you this whole post is Red wanting to finish his sub game!! =p

Actually the "after" command is not there because it's not possible to do what the after command did. The after command worked on the premise that all types were added to a giant per-type list, and only that list. In BMax, there is no giant per-type list, objects can belong to multiple lists and lists can contain multiple different types. So if you said SpaceShip2=After(SpaceShip1) and SpaceShip2 is in three different lists, some of which contain only SpaceShips and some of which contain Aliens as well, you've no idea what you're gonna get back. From which list? Including aliens or not?


Now that's true, even if people are loathe to admit it. Not THAT much more complex though. Nothing you couldn't learn in a week if you've plenty of spare time and a month if you've little spare time.

You can't possibly think that all the DX9 stuff that you ( and many others ) wanted to see in Blitz3d wouldn't have been more complex and take quite some time to learn, surely? IIRC, you're well up on shaders, so you know that they alone are a subject worthy of a few books, and take quite a bit of time to learn how to USE, let alone how to write. Not to mention how they interact with each other. Then if you start throwing in things like stencil shaders, those aren't straightforward either.

So, for me, if your position is that you wanted something which was no more complex than Blitz3d, you didn't want DX9 OR BlitzMax. In fact, I'd wager the DX9 stuff would take considerably more learning than the few things in BlitzMax which can't be avoided and are a little more complex.

Firstly, reading any information prior to BlitzMax's launch would have helped to avoid your misconceptions from being so quickly dashed.
Don't get me wrong, I want an official and fresh 3d module as well... but it would be silly to still be holding back the language so that they could hard-code it to a 3d engine.
There would not be a quick and easy solution of just putting the new 3d engine in Blitz3d's old framework. Mark himself stated that the code for that was a mess.

Another random tangent:
MAX and OO isn't necessarily more difficult than B3d style spaghetti code; it's just different, and there is a bit of a transition. No more of a learning curve than learning your first programming language, though. (In fact, as I stated at CW, I think object-oriented code better suits many people's initial thoughts on how programming works).

And another random tangent:
What's wrong with 2d, anyway?
Loads of B3d's best games end up just 2d.

I love BlitzMax and don’t plan on defecting any time soon. The only thing I sorely miss is a BRL-supported 3D module.

Regarding Visual Studio, there’s one significant problem, IMO: the requirement for a 22MB .Net redistributable to be installed on your target users’ systems. Considering many people are still on 56k dialup, this adds an additional hour to their download time.

And I can't see "please install .net from Micro$oft!" as a thing that a casual gamer would appreciate :)

Firstly, reading any information prior to BlitzMax's launch would have helped to avoid your misconceptions from being so quickly dashed.

Lol, yeah I never really read up on stuff. :P

Sure, I'm just pointing out that the simplicity of B3D's command set and the wholesale adoption of OO by Max are mutually exclusive. But that was just one example - compare and contrast loading and playing a mod file in B3D to the same in Max and it's the same story.


Yeah, Red really just needs someone to use that DX7.DLL to get bump mapping (ie from a grey-scale image, not a normal map) working and he'd be away.

I disagree slightly, though, because I agree with Eurythmia ("the only thing we want is 3D-power in our hands with ease of use") - it's not so much a matter of wanting to write shaders as being able to type "Shadows True". I dare to venture that once folk get a nice modern "unified" renderer as some sort of baseline, they actualy will stop the tech waiting game and use it to create somrthing. It's the milestone step that we've waited so long for.

Then make it automatic. Have the installer check if it's present and offer to download it automatically if it's not.


I agree that this is what people want, I'm just not sure it's ever going to be as simple as that, particularly if Mark is sticking with stencil volumes.

what Gabriel said.

edit: i mean yeah dx9, too much hard for me anyway.

Apologies. Was just trying to offer an alternative that worked for me. No need for the CAPS, underlining, italics or the attitude:) I'm more than capable of picking out the salient points in your posts without requiring cues like this;)

I agree that the sdk should be bundled with express. It's probably too large to fit on the cd though.

All I know is I work fastest in B3D, slightly slower in DBP, and about 2.5 times longer in BMax - all to achieve the same result. BMax is more versatile for doing high end stuff (the kind of stuff that is beyond almost everyone here), but it is also lower level so it's not really a BASIC, my requirement is for a BASIC. If I wasn't going to use BASIC for a project I am unlikely be pussy footing about with BMax.

I also think the documentation is the worst programming language documentation I have ever personally seen, it's unacceptably poor.

From my perspective BMax is a dead end. It's only merit is easy coding on a Macintosh. Provided you know to fix drive permissions and install X11 that is - the error messages if you dont are hardly forthcoming...

I feel sorry for BRL and Mark. He's had a tough couple of years in someways and he's pretty much just got himself to rely on. 5 years ago he was one of only 2 places you could go for straight forward PC game development. Unfortunately, bigger companies have realized that this is a great market and are just taking over. BlitzMax gets slaughtered in the 2D category by Torque Game Builder and it has no 3D natively and I think most people feel like Liberator.

It's cool that BMax is modular and all but if you've got the skill to take advantage of that you might as well just use C++. BRL should have stuck to what they had going best ... Blitz3D. They should have KISS and just added more features to that tool. They should have added the graphics upgrades, physics, AI, and a complete tool chain that all works with Blitz3D's basic structure.

When you think about it BRL logic really is completely ass backwards. Instead of going more abstract and making it easier for people to make games which was the whole point initially they went less abstract, more low level, and decided to let that users should develop all the tools etc.

I'm sort of glad they did what they did but I think the DarkSDK is a better way to do the same thing. Blitz should just have a C++ SDK for Blitz instead of trying to make a language that bridges the gap between C++ and traditional Blitz. Afterall the jump from Blitz3D to C++ really isn't that big. I guess Max helps a lot but I don't know ... I haven't used it for much. I love the language don't get me wrong, it's a thing of genious but it's just not really necessary for what most of us want to do. It lacks the total control of C++ and if you've outgrown Blitz3D that's probably where you need to go.

Nope.

Here's the million dollar question then:

If you're so upset with Blitz3D being a deadbeat language, the BlitzMax 3D module being fashoinably late, and Visual Basic and The Game Creators having superior products, why the hell are you still here? Why not just gracefully (and preferably silently) move on to what you percieve as bigger and better things? Why would you want to stay on the in your opinion sinking ship? Are you such a sucker for punishment? Just go already.

I mean if Jeremy (no offense) can switch without all this drama, you can too. You just need to try harder.

So do I, and I don't blame them for wanting to switch to a more professional clientel, and be rid of these childish whineing hatemongers.

..my very good friend and my aikido master, Hyoshi Kasuga use to say "..If you believe everything you read, better not read..."...so since he likes womans as I do, I trust him on this..hehehe

Yeah, as much cute as that mentality is FlameDuck, that we are all just masicists that love to be beaten on by the choking grip of reality - that's not what it's about.

Many people, just like me, have devoted thousands of hours into their game. Into learning Blitz, into understanding how it works. There is so much more to learn about a language than just the syntax. It's a style, it's an art. And what your suggesting is just like saying to a watercolor artist, "Oh just switch to airbrush and stop complaining already." It doesn't work like that. We WANT to stay with blitz not because we like to complain, but because we know it. And we know it well. I have more money than I want to think about invested in my game, and more hours than my social life would like to admit, I can't just give it up. I have an obligation to finish it, to myself, my publisher, and to those looking forward to playing the game.

However, I can't sell this game to Mac users. I cannot have all the latest and greatest technology. Hell, I can't even have more than 6 units with bones on the screen at one time without slowdown. I want to keep blitz, more than anything, but I want the engine to be able to handle what I'm asking of it! I want my tool to keep up with the demand of my industry.

Red started a good thread, I think this stuff NEEDS to be discussed. You seem to have missed the fact that this is a debate, not a bashing session. This is not drama, this is identifying a problem, and discussing ways to fix it. Without talks like these we would all just walk around hitting each other with sticks until we got our way. And honestly, the only drama I see is calling us "hatemongers." We are not a fascist regime bent social hierarchies according to skin color, we just want our favorite tool to work properly, so please man cool it with the insults.

well.. if you're a watercolor artist, ranting about how the airbrush is far superior and how it's got this and that feature, then I'd suggeste that artist try to learn how to use the airbrush, instead of complaining about his watercolor palette.

has anyone seen this topics ID, look in the address bar, it's topic=60666

Red you are devils advocate or was that FlameDuck?

lol I can't believe this thread is still going so strong...

hhehe...its going to be stronger, and stronger...and stroneger...its carry momentum, and momentum and more momentum..and ..and..pooffff..

I've stuck with blitz3d all this time and am still happy.
Yeah it lacks all the fancy stuff but im not too fussed cos i will try bmax when the 3d stuff is officially out.
I have played around alot with the demo and i love the power it gives to do so much more than blitz3d.
The oop stuff is great and i feel is needed for larger projects.

I also don't think it is any harder to code with than blitz, i actually prefered it and it showed how limited stuff in blitz actually is with less freedom.

Anyway, i am gonna give c/c++/c# a spin, i've had a mess in the past and think i need to give it more of a try.

No. I'm saying you made the choice to lock yourself into a specific tool. Now that you feel this tool is obsolete, you want other people to compensate you for you poor judgement.

Well that's all fine. It just doesn't seem fair to me, to commit BRL to something you're obligated to. I don't think it's fair to ask them to pull you out of this situation you've no one to blame for than yourself.

Wait. Let me get this straight. You knew from the get go that the engine wasn't suitable for what you wanted it to do, yet still you chose to invest large amounts of money and time in it? And this is somehow all BRL fault for making BlitzMAX?

No it doesn't. Because it's totally pointless. Old men sitting around talking about things BRL should have done differently is going to make no difference at all. Now if you really wanted to remedy the situation, and possibly salvage some of all that time and money which you have allegedly invested in your game, why not just grab BlitzMAX and use Simon's MiniB3D stuff? At least then you wouldn't have to start all over again. Sound like a plan?

Oh really? Perhaps you would kindly direct me to a post that identifies a problem, and/or offers a solution. Theres over 100 to chose from, shouldn't be too hard.

Who said you had to be all that to be a hatemonger? Do you want me to quote all the times in this thread that the sanity of BRL has been questioned, simply because they had a different opinion than that of someone who doesn't have the 411 on anything that goes on at BRL? With the exception of Mark Sibly, no one knows matter of factly which business decisions BRL made that where sound ones, and which where not so sound ones. Its not a discussion, it's rabid opinionated speculation.

You want to tell BRL they screwed up? Leave. Permanently. You want to play with their ball, in their house, you should accept that they make the rules, and they decide what game to play, and when to play it, regardless of how stupid you think that is.

Did I strike a nerve? Tell you what, you stop throwing illinformed rubbish about, like "No one wants 2D stuff anymore", and I'll stop calling you a childish whineing hatemonger. Deal?

I think it's hillarious (in a sad, ironic, and slightly disturbing way) that people think it's just fine and dandy for Microsoft, whom most assuredly could afford to keep archaic products on artificial life-support, to drop support after 5 years, while much smaller companies like BRL for whom artificial life-support for archaic products, might not be a fiscally sound solution, are held to much higher standards. Time to move on indeed, cretins.

No deal. Stop throwing around personal insults. Period. It's against the forum rules, as you well know.

See above reply. Just because others have a different viewpoint than you, doesn't make them cretins.

..true... still; the statement "No one wants 2D stuff anymore" is just plain wrong though..
but that's no excuse for namecalling..

You're still all gay!

You're all going to die!

..and I love 2d stuff and GUI/apps.. to the dogs with 3d :P

No. And it's not an IDEA it's a REAL product!

It works on multiplatform (B3d no hope...), it offers OO programming, it has advanced option (pointers & Co.) like other 'professional' languages, it's modular and it is well supported...

PS: I like both B3d & Bmax (+MaxGUI) and I'm waiting (when it is ready) the 3d Module...
And I hope the 3d Module will use all the Hyper FX of the modern graphics cards: for all the others better use blitz3d (I think...)

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!! oh my god... this is still going strong...

ROTFLMAO @ 66606 who came up with that one...

woooo... aaaahhhh, ok...

seriously though... this WAS indeed meant to be a discussion... and not a debate or bashing fest... and i really appreciate all the input and viewpoints, from all sides of the topic... and i appreciate that it was kept as a useful discussion...

well for the most part... anyways :)

666... hahahahhaaaaaa....

--Mike

@Red, Can I ask you a favour. If the thread doesnt need pictures in it. (ie the first post isnt "Look at my Graphics", could we just link to images rather than post them?
(Its just that im only on 56k, and its downthroteled at that)

Apart from the Lack of pre-running Lists of Objects/Variables created, BMax doesnt seem to be any more difficult than B3D - If you dont want it to be.
And the list thing can be sorted out (ie you can learn how to do it yourself if you wanted) really quickly (2hrs), theres a tut somewhere about, and enough discussion of it.

I agree with the sentiments expressing dismay at the increase in development time useing BMax, but I sudjest that its simple because wereas before we would only program funtionallity that we needed, we now program funtionality for every possible use of the "Object" we can think off

I like BMax. And at the moment Im in that "Its the game logic that make the game, not the graphics", so whilst Max3d not being here is a pain. I knew that they're wasnt going to be a Max3d for at least 9 mths. And so am not writting a product that needs one.

What I think is wrong tho is that BMAX needs a 3dHAL (ie a 3d card) to use Max2d. I Appreaciate that most everything has a 3dcard now, and that most of the card development has gone reasently into 3d. But producing a product that needs 3d, yet has no 3d commands seems odd. (It does work under a 3dHEL like, but is a mite slower)

anyone need a 3D engine?
well; either build one yourself.. OR... get a 3rd party one, like you would do with any other programming language..

hehe :)

sorry 'bout that HK... no more pics.

do you need me to take those out above, as they really arent necessary... the opinions are the important thing here...


ok... first of all, this is not a matter of BMax being more complicated... if anything, it is more easy to use for me, i'm used to working with classes and methods and stuff like that as opposed to long threads of procural strings and keeping track of em in various include files... the OO solution is far more condusive to development... i've said this all along...

... and while in the beginning, it may seem like a lil more effort, if am hour or two is taken to just step back and examine what your goals for your game, not only your current game, but whatever you may do in the future, and then code accordingly so that the basis of your development can be used again and again... then you will find that game development in BMax can become a much more streamlined process than you might ever imagine... with the game going from conception to prototype in a matter of hours... your ability to do this being leveraged from your existing classes...

in short, the hardest thing about Max may be that employing its potential requires that you employ your brain before starting to type... a lil planning first, that's all...

second... i'm sure mark is planning a really great 3D implementation... and of course, in order to get it to work there will be some abstraction of the 3D layer and the different OS linking layers... all of this is not what is under contention here...

what i'm saying is that further development of Blitz3D, to inlcude, but not limited to DX9 functionality, shadows, etc... plus the availability of an SDK allowing the advanced coder a choice (c++, .net, delphi) to code aginst it, surely would have been past completed by now, would have been productive by now... and we would still have BMax coming down the pike...

these things could've been done...

to leave the flagship product without any prime movement, was, possibly... a mistake.

--Mike

@Red,

I dont think that it nessesarly true.
Being as Im a Noob, I tend to spent more time reading noob posts than you do, and the indication that Im getting is that the only product I know of that works as you have descibed (ie Dark Sdk), is not takeing punters away. If anything more people moveing this way.

Oh I agrre totaly on the development speed thing, I was just saying it seems longer (and it is), for the first couple of BMax projects, because of all the extra functionality that you "might" need next time you use the object. Instead of extending the object when you need this functionality, we (Well I) spend ages adding it, even tho its future use is Theoretical.

I fundimentaly disagree on the DX9 instead of BMax thing. I think it would have been a greater error not to move to an at the least partialy implemented oop.
At other times Ive expressed my opinion that you dont need oop to program anything, and have been shot down, (Whilst I appreachiate you where being sarcatic then, and if you were not being sarcatic everyone of your "You Need OOP" statements could be reprinted as a direct contradiction to your stance here).
A lot of new programers have heard of oop, dont really understand what it means, but KNOW they need it.
After all Oblivion Couldn't be written without oop (<---- Sarcasm)

If it could have been posible to have both, then good. If on ther other hand only one was going to happen, then the choose of an oop cross platform BASIC, rather than slightly nicer graphics in a 5year old Procedural Basic, was the correct one

IMO, Mark now could not go back to Blitz3d because if he stops the development of Max3D,
he will be blamed by the existing blitzMax users. Existing Blitzmax users may go away.
He must continue to develop Max3D no matter what we say.
If he does not concentrate on Max3D, Max3D could not be released on schedule (December).
So, Max3D may be another great success or failure (as someone call this gambling)
If Max3D is a failure, Mark may go back to Blitz3D.

In short, there is no hope for new features for Blitz3D, even it is the GREAT, EASY language on earth.

BTW, Blitz3D is considered old because it does not support dx9 or above and only Mark know
how much work is needed to support dx9 (may be very easy for him).

:)

@ H&K...



there is no contradiction here HK... if Blitz3D was dx9 enabled, and an SDK was made available... if just an SDK were made available... i could code Blitz3D in c++, and Blitz3D's lack of OOP would no longer be an issue...

do ya see what i'm talking about...

also...



not trying to be condescending or anything, but it think that you're not fully understanding where i'm coming from on this HK...

the move to max was inevitable, Blitz must evolve... but doing so by abandoning new development for Blitz3D, that was a mistake...

until Max3D comes out, there is no compelling reason at all for me to license BMax... if i was waiting for BMax3D to complete a 3D project, well, i may as well take a vacation for the next 6 months...

stop and think for a second... why would i license BMax in order to use a wrapper, so that i can use OGRE, or Irrlicht, or 3Impact... why would i do this, when i can use any of these just as easily in c++, without Max, or any wrapper...

and again, if an SDK was available for Blitz3D, the 5 year old procedural thing wouldn't even be an issue any more...

plus... Torque is doing pretty good, and it's based on old tech as well...

like i said above... you're not taking in the whole picture...

--Mike

To be honest, I chose BMax above all for the fact that it's cross-platform. Got to get used to the new structure, but I got the hang of it soon.

Some things are better in it, others not. But I guess that's just a personal issue.



I think there's some truth in it.
I really miss the cool 3D features of Blitz3D here in Max. But there are worse things.

As for a failure of Max3D.
I'm not really afraid of that.


That sounds awfully pessimistic.
But I guess it may not be for the time being.
Maybe in the future.
Or maybe Mark is gonna drop both 3D and Plus and goes on with Max. I've the idea that's what's gonna happen sooner or later anyway. After all the original BlitzBasic, which was the start of it all is also dead (because of too much limitiations I believe, and I do think the Max system has many options to expand more easily, but what do I know?)

But I can only speculate.

yeah... once Max3D comes out, i don't see much future for plus or B3D... but that's still a year away until it's up and productive... in the interim, there are those who would like an interim solution...

--Mike

I think BRL's priority for the next couple of weeks should be refocused to redesigning the docs.

I have never seen anyone saying they like them, and quite a few people (like me) have BMAx but are put off learning and using it, as its so darn confusing to start with.

B3D's docs arn't perfect, but they are alot better and easyer to use. You can quite quickly find the command you need, and use it correctly.

There is just so much confusion on which module to even start looking in to read the docs, then when you finally find the right section, actually finding the correct command is a nightmare.

JUST REDO THE DOCS AGHH

But Red you have been very very vocal on how good oop is. I think if brl had gone down the route you are sudjesting, you would be calling nay demanding oop.

The Main drive of this thread was, as I understand it, would brl have been better to make b3d have nicer graphics (ie DX9), or Write BMax an oop language.

When I state that I think the mistake would havbe been making b3d into Dx9, you reply with BMax doent have a 3d mod.

That was not your question.

If you now wish to make the thread "Where is max3d", then be my guest.
But I Stand by my anwser that to have improved b3d at the expense of shipping time for BMax would have been a worse decision.

what are you talking about HK...c++ IS an OOP development language... if a Blitz3D SDK was available, that i could easily code with c++, wouldn't that qualify...

i don't think you fully understand what it is you talking about... no offense intended... please read the last couple of posts you put up, and my replys, again slowly... i think you are missing a few things...


no... the main drive of this thread was that abandoning further development on Blitz3D in favor of full development for BlitzMax was in my opinion, a mistake...

again... if Blitz3D had dx9 and an sdk... everything would be fine... it's not just the dx9 stuff, it's also the ability to use a more OO coding language that i was calling for...



--Mike

Red I realy do think it doesnt matter what I post. You want everyone to say "Yes" I think they should have done this.

But I dont, I think that A "New" cross platform OOP Basic, was a better marketing stratagy than B3d DX9

If BRL had made a B3d DX9, how much longer would I now have to look at waiting for a Max3d? Would MaxGui even be finished by now?

Whilst I (do) understand where you are coming from, I think you are wrong. (And please dont post, because I dissagree with you I couldnt have understood what you ment)

If you and I were on the board of BRL, we could not convince the other that the other was right, but If yours had been adopted, then I would have accepted it as policy, because the arguments you have used have all been of sound judgement. I simply hold the other view.

BMax was the way it had togo though

1)There couldn't be a B3D directx 9 'module' as Mark said it would have required a complete rewrite, which is what BMax is.

2)Games now have todo alot more stuff, shaders, shadows etc, but BRL is still the same size, having todo a lot more work. So making it moduler, would hopefully encourage more of the community to help with the development, which has sorta worked.

ok... i guess there's no further point in talking with you HK, you obviously are incapable of dealing with facts without making it personal...

why in hell would i only want to hear everyone who agrees with me... what would be the point of that...

for that matter, what in hell makes you think that everyone would agree with me in the first place...

ya know... it's this stubborn, brain dead attitude of yours that's becoming a real pain... i've generously taken the time to try and explain to you... as plainly as i can, exactly what it is i'm trying to say... yet you still babble on, refusing to even look at what your saying to see that it makes no sense what so ever...

SDK = being able to code in c, c++, .net, delphi
c++, .net,delphi = OOP

duhhhh... huuullooooo...

in the light of your foolish statements above...
it is obvious that you don't have a clue... nor do you want to have a clue

it is in this light that i conceed to your mindless insistance... and superior logic and development skillz...

you win... i am wrong... ok...

happy now...

now please find someone else to aggravate... i really am interested in hearing the opinions and views from people here who have an understanding of what is going on... and not arguing with some stubborn self admitted noob... before i'll do that, i'll let you 'win'...

--Mike

@Red, Ok this is the end of it.
I do understand what you are trying to say, I just dissagree with you. I had thought that the thread allowed me to reffer to your opinions, but if thats too personal, then ok, sorry.

But how many posts would it take for you to change your mind? I dont think you would, because they are legititimatly held points of view.

Why then is my point of view that an SDk for b3d DX9 would have been more "detrimental" to BRL, than a New oop Language, to be taken as any less legitimet?

no you don't understand...

if you can't see, that making an sdk available for Blitz3D would allow me to code it in an OOP langauge, then you clearly don't understand what i'm saying at all... nor do i think you have a clue as to what it is this whole discussion is all about...

and your disagreement is based on not understanding...

not like some people above, who disagree, but surely have shown that they do understand the differences...



--Mike

It would have allowed YOU, but thats not what this was about. It was about BRL, not YOU
I would have preffered B3d to have been made OOP as well.

ya see... ya just keeep on with your foolishness...

now, finally, the light bulb over your egg lights up...
now, you are beginning to understand what you haven't for the past couple of posts...

so, to avoid admitting your lack of understanding, you embark on another direction....

first... before we even go on there, before i even address your latest babbling nonsense, wouldn't it be proper of you to acknowledge that you don't/didn't understand what was being said to you before...

--Mike

Red I think BRL were right to go for Bmax. I think it was the correct desition for them to make.
I just would have liked them to have made the other desition because it was better for me, NOT because it was the correct one

To Clarify I think YOU are fundimentaly wrong in your assertain that it would have been better for BRL to have made a b3D SDK rather than BMax

Okay you two that's enough.
I'm getting a bit sick of those arguments over and over.


There are things I have against BMax, which was better in BB and B3D, but I do see I get a lot back for it in return. OOP basis, cross-platform, the ability to cut those features out of the compiler your program doesn't need. That's what I like BMax more for.

But I do understand that's a personal issue. If you don't need those improovements, I guess you want to stay with B3D.

But there's no point arguing over it. It solves nothing. It's good opinions are difrent, but respect each other.

I'm not going to point a guilty one. I'm just saying that enough is enough.

that doesn't answer my immediate posting to you... you convenitently try and pass it by...

admit that you only now are starting to understand what was being told to you before...

then we can move on... else go bother someone else...

... before police chief trickora arrests both of us.

@ trick...
what arguements... this has been a relatively civilized discussion up till now...

calm down... lighten up a bit...

you're startin to get more tight jawed than me here...

:)

--Mike

I code VB for a living and am a fan of .net. With the new release of 2005 and .net2, MS really has devoted a lot of time and effort to get it right. And giving away the express editions sure doesn't hurt at all. I love BASIC syntax and have been unable to really get into C#.

I have been using Blitz since B2D days and code for fun but have been considering writing shareware. I just took a hard look at whether I should use vb.net/managed dx9 or max(I have been using max since beta days.) Here is why I decided on max:

1. No 20MB .net distro
2. VB is not cross platform.
3. Grey Alien's framework saves me a ton of time and I can get right into game coding.

I played with vb/dx and did the stuff that I wanted about as easily in vb. The Sprite class is great for throwing stuff up easily. I don't really care about 3D at this point. I think it was smart to release max without 3D.

As a last point, the docs in max plain SUCK! There are so many examples of where I wasted an hour trying to figure out how to do something it is pathetic. BR REALLY needs to pay someone to come in and fix it. There are people on this very forum that are capable and I am sure would do it for a reasonable fee.

-Eric

Is there actually anyone here who doesn't moan over the manual? :P

1- gonna be part of the OS anyways... necessary for a few things already... easily installed if needed... really not a factor (unless all you have left on your hd is 20 mb)

2- mono...

3- one of the few sound reasons presented...

--Mike

>use a more OO coding language that i was calling for...

>SDK = being able to code in c, c++, .net, delphi
c++, .net,delphi = OOP


Come on Red calm down. You know very well the problem you have with many choices is that you get confused. All these OOP options would create nightmares for you. You need Mark to create one right language for you, one that is gonna fit you like a good suit ;)

You'd be tripping and switching from OOP language to another OOP language.

I can just see you "uh hoh I want polymorphic features and I like inherintance but I'm not so good at c++ and it's sytax is horrible, uh bah hoh it's time to start switching OOP language and start rewritting thigs in VB, .NET, Delphy, Ruby, Chuby, Puppy or W.E. after few weeks you change your mind and start doing it in B3d and so on :P

We would bee seind threads like "It's that time again, new OOP language for my project" etc...

Lay it down on me now Red in your special way, unleash the fury now :P

If you can't see that, I'm just joking, we got damn 6 months before we can have any fun with ;ax and man has to joke a bit ;)

And I appreciate that - let's not end up like Red and H&K!


You see, this is the nefarious nature of the net. We were probably normal once, but now we've gotten to the point where we're offended by italics. My view is that forums are such a horrifically poor method of communication ("Is that person actually berating me for wanting a disc?" etc) that we need all the caps, underlining and italicisation we can get. ;)


That's probably true. I had a look at a few DVD covermounts too and, remembering the good old days when magazines were stuffed with listings and tutorials 'n' whatnot, found it kinda sad that it wasn't just there.

But I'm OT now, so better make a point.


Thing is, for some people a language that is so open that licensing built-in FMOD functionality is no longer an option for BRL isn't much of a step forward. People have differing ideas about what constitutes "moving on", inevitably leading to discussion over whether BRL actually has done so or not. This is only compounded by the nearest thing we have to a universally accepted indicator of having "moved on" (that being, of course, modern DX9 3D rendering) not having arrived yet.

There's no point ranting about an inevitable discussion - which is what a bunch of programmers talking about the merits of a product made by a company they buy things from is.

To rephrase my previous answer: No!

yes... yes, that's exactly what i need... your clarity of vision is to be applauded max...

:)

--Mike

Actually, the average person doesn't have .net 2.0 installed and it won't be standard until vista. So if someone is downloading a 15MB demo, I am sure they don't want to download and install a 20MB distro to play it.

Is mono up and coming on the mac? And will it work with DX9?

i've always been in search of this average person... i keep hearing rumors about his/her existance... sorta like bigfoot... there are pictures of him/her all over the internet, yet i have never met anyone who admits to being this average person...

also... would an average person even know the difference between dot net, and a hair net...

--Mike

okay, I misinterpreted the nature of your post.


lol, agreed. I'll not comment further on that situation though.


It's strange that it's not included on a dvd mount. I mean any microsoft language goes hand-in-hand with these sdk's. I wouldn't say express is useless without them, but it sure opens a lot of doors. The 2 sdk's I ended up with fits on 3 cd's compressed so they would definitely fit on dvd. Hopeful speculation : maybe there's a way to get them sent out to you from M$. Stop laughing.

Back on topic. I think BRL did the right thing. BMax is like a half-way house between B3D and C++. Plus, most ppl were here as BMax was being developed. This helped with the transition between the 2 languages. Everyone's learning pretty much the same stuff at the same time as well, and that helps strengthen the sense of community. I think that's part of the reason why I've stuck around. At least in my case, it isn't completely about which language has the better feature set. There's also a fair number of ex-Amiga Blitzer's here too so it might be a case of 'Better the devil you know', reminiscing the good 'ol days, flying in the face of M$ etc...Just a thought.

Lol well I do think FlameDuck had a good point in his little comeback at me where he was snapping his fingers, wobbling his head from left and right and going, "Oh no you di'int!" discussing this is now relatively moot. I like the good ol' debate and I still do think this stuff is important. But the fact of the matter is, I still love Blitz. I'm going to get BMax3d when it comes out, and that's the end of that. If you are here, right now, reading this, chances are you like Blitz too. Blitz is doing just fine for my current game, it's just not everything I wanted it to be - hopefully this will be addressed in the next version. Until that time, I'm going to stick with it. I just hope that perhaps someone high up there reads some of this thread and gets an idea where the community (or at least some of the community) is at in terms of how they feel about the program. So, sorry if I upset you FlameDuck, I meant no disrespect and I understand your point of view completely (I just don't like being called a "hatemonger" ;). I just kind of wish things were done slightly differently, but I live in reality as well as everyone else, I know first hand things don't always go how I want.

I say, this topic has served its purpose, we now know where people stand. Nothing will be accomplished from a "no you didn't", "yes you did" type of discussion. Let the beast die!! :]

has anyone realized that the first post was made "1 day ago"?
I'd say that's a pretty hot thread.. :)

@Red October, whinge, whinge, whinge..

you're always going on about facts, you know.. well "you" should face the facts then dude..

and the fact is.. a whinge isn't going to change anything, because there isn't going to be a b3d dx9 or a b3d sdk, is there? when have brl ever hinted at even the remotest possibilty of either of these things? i have never seen it anyway, maybe you could enlighten me..

bmax is the dx9 machine, and the oop machine. there is no other (there can be only one! hehe)..

so really, it all boils down to a decision from you "the user".. the course that brl have taken is really quite irrelevant, that is after all, their decision, we "the users" have no control over the decisions taken at brl.

so.. yeah.. back to that decision.. for me i don't want dx9, but i think you do, so you should just drop b3d right now (this second ok? hehe).. and go use something that makes your ship look shiny and the waves look like water and not a disgusting mess. go! use dbpro, use tv3d, 3dimpact, hell use irrlicht or whatever else it is you have, but please.. stop waiting for bmax3d.. it's not going to be usable until earliest january 2007!

About two years ago, actually... and if memory serves, it was more of an outright statement than a hint.
Where are you getting your information from?

mark sibly..

edit: maybe you didn't read it but mr. sibly said he (predicted) a release of bmax 3d module around christmas. the january 2007 figure is a simple educated guess of when it will actually be "usable".

second edit: ok so they mentioned it 2 years ago. thats a long time 2 years though.. isn't it?

Blitz is great we all love it and we want it to be the tool we get to use, that's why we stick around. Deep down we all hope it turns out to be as great as Blitz3D was for it's time and allows us to work in the way we like to work.

That's not why they're cretins. But do enlighten me. What word is suitable for someone who thinks BlitzMAX is too complicated, so he'd sooner have a Blitz3D library for C++?

Sure it is. Try and keep the big picture in mind. If you want to use FMOD (or BASS or whatever), you still can. You just need to get the license for it yourself. On the sum of it's parts, BlitzMAX is a step above Blitz3D in nearly every aspect.

And why do you suppose that is? Could it possibly be that Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, decided to change DX9 and it's interfaces, to such a degree that it was entirely incompatible with DX7, and programs designed for DX9? Is there the slighest possibility that rewritting Blitz3D from scratch to accomodate DX9, that it would have taken even longer than Max3D, which with it's abstract interfaces, is much more robust, and resistant to 3rd party changes (like for example DirectX 10)?

A DirectX 9 version would not likely have come any faster than Max3D - and you would then be whineing that it wasn't DX10. There's always something, isn't there?

This is like a Columbos first trip to America.

The crew gets creazy after months on the sea and no land in sight and they almost talk Columbus into turning back.

But Columbus is persistant he knows that they will find land, so they go forward but creaw is getting more and more desparate and Columbus needs to talk to them from time to time to calm them down.

After all he is their Captain and he needs to keep his men motivated because he has vision(s) that they don't see. All they can see is money, wisky and woman and on this ship that they are all toghether on this big promissing trip there are all kind of creazy men.

Some talk behind captains back, some defend the captain and some say nothing at all. But they are all on the same ship sharing the same fate, risking their fortunes and putting their faith in the captain to steer the ship in just the rigth direction.

Some of men like to disscuss about the trip and are too inpatient while other don't want any discussions at all not to speak about questioning captain's motives and why there is still no land in sight after months on the open see. There is no looking back now, it's too late to turn and too late to regret, all on ship have to stay on the ship if they want to survive.

As long as Captain chooses not to speak and stays in his cabin men are gonna talk and disscus and question and do it every once in a while. There is really nothing except land in sight to stop all this.

That's why Columbus needs to speak to his men and say few words to strengthen their faith.

Columbus I hope you are reading this if you are indeed alive?

That's a nice analogy for the situation. Whenever someone leads people question. Mark surely is a visionary guy. His logic behind BlitzMAX is really a lot 'bigger' than many other tools in due time it may well prove to be the ultimate platform ... we'll just have to see.

That's not "just" what you have to do at all. Compare and contrast the playing of a mod: In B3D it's one line; In Max you either have to license and hook into a dll, author a Max module that depends on said dll or (if you want a free solution) go away and learn how to knock up a sound server then supply its buffer with the output of D.U.M.B or somesuch. Exactly the kind of piddling around that many folk adopted B3D to escape!

Having the "freedom" to bang my head against a C compiler in order to get Max to do what B3D does "out of the box" is hardly moving forward in anything but the most academic sense. You, I readily accept, might see things differently depending on what it is you want to do today, but it's hardly conentious (or whinging hatemongering) to recognise that the shift in focus represented by Max has left a percentage of Blitzers cold; It's simply the stuff of interesting discussion.

Personally I wouldn't have Mark change direction just because Max doesn't quite suit me to a tee - not only would/will a strong 3D module easily outweigh all other concerns, but I remember the resistance to B3D going DX9 back when it was seemingly on the cards. To turn around now and say "well, actually, you should have done that other thing BRL" would be a piss-take of immense magnitude. :D

Wait a minute, I thought we just were being very friendly with one another....

Sledge is correct. Blitz3D appeal was simplicity. If we wanted something open-ended, then we could go back to C/C++ or .NET these days with full DX9 and a wealth of free and license based SDKs. Blitz3D was an all in one tool to get decent products out with. No one was going to write the next greatest FPS on it, but a good looking prototype or indie game was very possible in 2D or 3D or hybrid.

If Mark would of wrote Blitz3D v2, with DX9 (shaders) support, added the OOP, kept the sound engine in, and hopefully fixed the IDE - I can almost guarantee that it would of sold.. and sold well. With Max, it is almost like we are re-inventing the wheel of C/C++ but in Basic syntax... why?

But, it is too late. Plus, we don't FULLY know why Mark did what he did and he might have a great reason for it. I don't believe that Mark should necessarily be influenced by our opinions - although, even the greatest minds have gone down a wrong path by not listening to opinions and advice of others. (Thomas Edison believed in DC rather than AC)

...and I bet you'd still find something to complain about...
You can't guarantee anything of the sort. The only thing you can guarantee is that YOU would have paid for it.

I've been around here for six years almost and the number of incomplete/abandoned projects I've seen in that time outweighs the completed ones a hundred times over. You seriously think that would have been any different if Blitz3D had DX9 support? All those projects didn't fail because of Blitz3D, DirectX, Mark, George effing Bush or anything else - they fail because people got bored.

And you know what? They'd STILL have got bored with DX9, and spend 99% of their time on this very forum, blaming the lack of something else for their unbounded failure. The majority of people managed just fine with Blitz3D/DX7.

I don't know, but it's not 'cretin'.

-------------------

I have to agree with gfk, here. "A bad workman always blames his tools", and all that.

well... it's surprising to see that this is still full of life and going stronger than ever...

@muk...

then in your next post youe write...

hahahahahaaaaaa... yeah, facts can be a killa, can't they... dude... feel free to begin 'whinging'... hahahahaaa...

@ maximo...
i liked your Christopher Columbus analogy... but there are a few things you might've taken into account regarding this seemingly one to one comparison...

1- Columbus thought he was heading towards the Indies... he was lost... he had no idea of the big continent in between him and his destinatination...

2- can you imagine if his men had to wait 2 years... hahahahahaaaa... weeeeeee...

3- they tried to talk him into going back... which would imply that they had access to him... he gave them encouraging messages to keep their spirits up...

4- Columbus eventually wound up a poor failure (in the eyes of the court)... his men gone on to different ships and to follow different captains...

quite an analogy indeed...

@ 'Duck...
as usual, the whole point escapes you entirely "duckerooo...

i really don't think anyone at all who has participated in this discussion falls into this category, least of all the originator of this topic... you really have this strange habit of reading one thing, and coming away with something totally different, totally unrelated to what was written...

what *WAS* proposed was that a dx9 Blitz3D and and SDK might've been considered before going full tilt down the 'Max road... that's all...


@ GFK...
your viewpoint is based on totally irrelevant facts... true are the numeric comparisons of completed vs uncompleted projects... but this same ratio exits everywhere, in all development environments, to one degree or another (read the TGE blogs, the DarkBASIC wip forums)... it has no relevance whatsoever on the topic at hand...
and you say this to say what... we should stay with dx7 and the old Blitz!!!???!!!

get a grip...


ya know, this was supposed to be a level headed discussion on the proposal that an enhanced B3d with an SDK might've been a more prudent course to take... and not a call for ole Christopher C to reverse his course...

nor was it intended to be a rant that the world is coming to an end... merely because Max3D is taking a while longer than expected...

... it was intended just as an open mined discussion... for open minded, level headed developers here...

that's all...

how did all these lunatics get in the building...

:)

--Mike

Technologies are constantly changing. No one can foresee
the future, including Mark. No one knows there are so many
great 3d engines and tools today.

Red...you are truly losing your mind.

Losing?

Toby is right (first time this year, lets party) ... it's loooong gone... (just look at my avatar)

my only saving grace is that my first name aint Toby... and my last name ain Zuydidlyfink...

:)

read the bottom part of Toby's sig... he sure sounds like he's a happy 'max camper...
he's surely the one to take issue here...

i'd really be more inclined to give your opinions on this a second thought, if even one of you had a PHD in something or the other... otherwise, you're both just babbling off to hear yourself mumble, and make yourselves feel better...

which is fine by me...

--Mike

>Red...you are truly losing your mind.

Red just tell them, that you can't loose what you dont have :P you are above need to have a mind and such human things :)

:)

--Mike