Why should BRL concentrate on marketing?

Because they are not even on the radar! Perhaps they could do with purchasing some PR?

http://developer.apple.com/games/gameenginesonmac.html

Seriously guys, you really need to get included in reviews like this.

** I've also noted that all of those other engines create universal binaries.

Max isn't a game engine IMO, but that's been argued a ton!

Send em to Coventry.

http://www.coventry.ac.uk/part-time-and-short-courses/short-courses-by-subject/marketing/a/129

I remeber when Mark in his worklog said that he has written to Steve Jobs and asked for coppla of Macs for BlitzMax development and got an answer that one Mac is on the way and now apple doesn't even know about BlitzMax, it's shame...

.

i agree with Cyg...

BlitzMax is a programming language...

but i'm sure that one day, someone will create a game engine with it... by this i mean, a game, with some content... and an open command set (scripting language) which exposes a lot of functionality to the back end... and an editor or two maybe, to make adding developer content a lil easier...

then, maybe BMax may get a mention... not as the game engine, but as the language from which a game engine was made with...

and so... with that in mind, maybe concentrating on getting a 3D module out would be the best marketing tactic available... word of mouth can make... or break...

--Mike

3d Module will be out in 6 months or so from now, so don't push it Big Red½¤%"#¤

hey... i'm not pushin... really i'm not... i'm just offering up an opinion...

and that 'or so' part of your response is what gives me, as well as others, a lil bit of consternation max...

now, not being part of the 3D beta, which i can plainly read in between the lines of your response, i might not be so content as to sit and be as sure as you are about what's going on...

like i said above, word of mouth and all... the same applies for no word of mouth...

stop and take a listen... hear any buzz about BlitzMax... heck, even DarkBASIC has a newsletter... Torque is out there everywhere... BlitzMAX... huh, what, eh, is that some sorta new cola or somethin'...

get it out... or get some news out... or do something... hell, the next Superman movie even had released trailers almost a year before it was released... and those people are also under a do not talk signed agreement...

hey... on second thought, maybe there needs to be a lil push or something around here... Blitz3D was the flagship product of the line... now there is no flagship product... no buzz on the streets... not much of anything...

--Mike

.. wasted ..

-- you're too quick :) --

--Mike

'cmon, if I ran BRL and I got a sniff of those reviews I'd be on the phone demanding that my product was included, game engine or not. Anyway no time to kill....

let's get something clear here Red, I DID NOT HAVE, erm I mean I AM NOT PART OF BETA TEAM, I am just speculating guessing by current progress that it may be another 6-12 months before we smell any sign of Max 3d.

sorry... i'd have to disagree Indie... the only person here really in a position to do that would be GreyAlien... he's the only one that has something that, like PTK, is a framework that a game can be wrapped around... he's the only one who has anything that even comes close to being a game engine, or something that qualifies to be in the article...

BlitzMax would only be mentioned as the language in which you code it...

--Mike

too much sugar in your coffee this morning max, or what... calm down a bit, will ya... lets get that straight right off the bat...

now what you did say above, and i quote, was...


you didn't say 'might be out'... you didn't say 'i think it will be out'... you said 'will be out'...

now... based on that authoritive statement, what do you suppose i would logically be led to conclude... that you must be privy to some info that i don't, nor do the majority of us around here... i mean you giving a definitive release time and all...

you see max... i read what you write... exactly what you write... do you...

now lets return to the topic that indie started please...


--Mike

Big Red, I don drink coffey so no there is no too much suggar ;)

Also since you mentioned Torque and that it is out everywhere, I read somewhere that GG are planing something like American Idol but for indie game developers. Now can you guess if that will make their community grow or what???

I would never have though that GG would grow so fast, they are like what 20-30 guys now that are hired, not to talk about all associates etc. If only BR would have more then 1-2 man team workin on their products, perhaps things would be happening faster....


Based on way BR is doing things it seems that their plan is not a world domination but rather a small village where they feel they have some control and that's why they are not doing any advertizing at all. I guess that makes them happy...

Just speculacions, when there is no news from them in the regular basic gossip like this it's hard not to talk about it when someone starts a thread like this! ;)

aaahhhh, so that's it... ya gotta try adding some coffee with that sugar :)
(sorry, i just had to jab that one in... don't hit me)

yeah... you're right... now that you've explained it a lil... no news in this case, will definitely lead to speculation... i agree...

--Mike

yeah if I was BRL, I'd pretend BMax was a game engine (even if it's really a programming language) and get it in the article just for the coverage.

As for my engine, well it needs BMax, it's not standalone and it doesn't have any extra funky tools so it would be at the bottom of the heap compared to the others (in the article) as complete systems, but as for what it enables people to do quickly with BMax, it's pretty much top dog ;-) as my customers will testify.

In fact Red, when the 3D module is out and you defect to BMax, checkout my framework, you won't be disappointed.

Lol, you guys amaze me sometimes.

@maximo, Reds right "Will" does sound like you were in the know.

@Red, I might say "Will" as a statement of belief, or if I was going to add "or else". As for example "Son, your bedroom WILL be tidy by saturday, or else"

But Maybe, just maybe the reason the bug hunting has shot up over the last week or so, is because maz3d beta is finished <------ Wishfull thinking

BRL's marketing is a joke. They definately need a PR and marketing guy. Not just to promote Blitzmax to build a userbase and industry recognition. But also to negotiate deals with middle ware.

Like Ageia, Torque and Dark basic both have special arrangements with Ageia that will allow developers to use their API's for free. And thats just one recent example.

Blitz is percieved as a failure because no one sees what's produced with it, what its capable of. And I don't think many of the big industry partners for other indie engines are really blitz aware at all.

Torque has Microsoft, Nvidia, Apple, ATI, Intel,Via, Autodesk, real arcade, shockwave, yahoo games, trymedia systems, reflexive as a sample of some of their business partners that offer them and their developers all kinds of support.

I will be the Blitz mascot. Let's face it I am "Sibly's" favourite going right back to the Amiga days. I think he found me quite exciting.

Right, that is that sorted.

I will be senior promotor and organiser of projects of promotion and will have my own team of Blitzers.

I'll ideally like some Blitzers that can speak a language other than English. French/German/Spanish - plus, a far eastern language (Japanese) would be nice.

Ummm, Contradictive at most :) Beta means unfinished.

An unfinished finished project. :D

@Cygnus, surly a beta means the alpha is finished, and an alpha is definitaly unfinished ;)

Beta means it's out of Alpha- which means it's less buggy, more usable ("Almost Complete") but still not complete.

Alpha usually means the system is there but it's very very premature and perhaps contains several critical fatal errors.

Well after my next few games hit the big time on all the portals, Blitz Max sales will rocket as developers catch on that it's a quick, easy and powerful way to make top quality Indie games.

Actually BRL should be paying me to make decent games to push the brand ;-)

I always thought that beta meant "Feature/functionally complete, but not all features/functions necessarily work" and that alpha meant "Not feature/functionally complete".

Thats the best and simplest way to put it, but it gets interpreted differently.

Well, is unity just a game engine? Alone with the full .net/mono framework, support of different languages in the pack it's a little bit more than just that.

Generally i would differ it more to what i use the tool for. Does anyone use blitzmax for analysing quantum physics or is writing a cms system with it? I guess not. Also if you watch how it's "advertised" on the product site i would say there are no doubts that all products from brl beside of the gui module are built with the focus on game-development. I bet they also sell better than the gui module.

I would say it's just not brl's style. It really won't be such a big deal to get in contact with apple for such an event if you just put a little bit of effort into this...

By the way i wonder why unity isn't named on the first place already... ;O)

Blitz would have a much easier time competing if it came with some simple editors. Simple entity placement world editor, particle editor, model viewer, GUI Editor etc

that's a good point T, but i've gotta remind you that not all game engines are used exclusively to make games... some are used for architectural presentation and walkthru... science modelling... etc... but i think it is a game engine first and foremost (no real first hand experience with it though), but this is only based on the lil time i spent with the original demo...

as far as Blitz3D for 3D games, and BlitzMax for 2D games is concerned... i don't know why someone hasn't already written a 'game engine' with one of them yet...

like what josh is doing... like what the Garage Games people have done... write a simple fps with basic character, weapons, scenery elements, networking... nothing exotic or fancy... then add a scripting capability to it (your own, or a 3rd party) that exposes an api to the developer... one that allows them to access the key functionality of your game... and you have a game engine...

the developer who uses your game engine will never touch the exe... just the scripting and content...

and you can always boost BRL stock by prominently posting that it was created in Blitz....

Evak makes a good point here too... putting what he just added above into context in my lil blurb, you could optionally provide a single editor or a couple of editors (terrain, character, particle) for your 'engine'... all written in Blitz(xxx)...

the game would be the easy part of this whole excercise, as i see it... making decent editors would be the real challenge...

but as far as BRL making all these other things... well... i don't really think that it's their jog per say... i mean, they give us the capability to make a game engine... they are a programming language maker... not a game engine maker...

a whole lot of people fail to make the distinction...

besides... if Blitz made a great editor, wouldn't that sorta undercut all you 3rd party providers out there who use Blitz...

--Mike

@Red Ocktober
Unity is also used for architecture walkthroughs and will be used for multimedia projects as well. Simulations for smaller things all that stuff which comes with 3d engines which are able to run in a browser and visualize stuff there - until the flash plugin which does 3d will be there and wipes them all away... ;O)

I also would look more at it as a tool which incorporates a workflow which thinks of how to get standard 3d fileformats into it, a 3d-ide (which is far from beeing perfect yet) a 3d-engine, a game-engine, a physics-engine, ...

you're right, as far as i see it T... but take a look at your last paragraph...

you've just described perfectly 3Impact, Torque, the Quake engine, even FPSC (don't laff now)...

what you've described is what game engines usually do nowadays... because they are termed game engines, doesn't restrict their usage soley to making games....

maybe 3D engines is a more suitable name for em :)

--Mike

Maybe TenGrmCe-Engines?
The truly enhanced next gen rich media content engines? ;O)

By the way i don't think torque has something to do with it...

BMX is a game-engine. It only depends on the definition!

You can make games with it, or not? ;)

:) hahahaha... fools bait if i ever saw it G... i'll pass...

--Mike

I found blitz by accident, they should make the site more appealing and definitely update some of the old screenshots with some from the gallery.
The game creators site (although not as user/member friendly) looks excellent in comparison.

I bet Mark & Simon are writing all this stuff down.

I think rotating actual finished Blitz games (screenshots) on the title page would be a nice thing.

Which language has a better site?
And if game shots are on the title page, would this not discurage people who want a non game language. (Which until max3d, Bmax is)
(And before ppl start to tell me they have written games in BMax, thats not the point)

With all this jest, it really is down to what BRL's vision is for themselves and their business, what they want to do and how they want to appear. Although we might all (or mostly) think that BRL needs to advertise more, they might have a different philosophy, perhaps that Blitz is well know through word of mouth, or maybe they don't want the kind of image that might come with competing in the same way that others do. And maybe they don't even want to have their company grow especially fast or in the maximal way. Who knows. It's not really any of our business.

Why advertise when they already have me?

nuff said - thread closed.

Hello.

How many people bought their copy of Blitz-hmna because of the comparison of games programming languages in PC-Plus? (which if I remember rightly Blitz-hmna came out overall top but suffered on documentation - especially as compared with DB) Or because of the series run in PC-Format on whose CDs/DVDs was Blitz-hmna?

D'ya know, I can't remember the original reason I bought Blitz-hmna on the Amiga? Possibly because I didn't like AMOS's front end and Blitz-hmna was free on a coverdisk.

You're right though, I think, Tim. That kind of publicity counts, if only for being shown on sites like this as comparisons.

Goodbye.

In my opinion BRL is currently doing a fine job with PR - didn't you guys notice the relative high number of new Bliz3D users these months? Something happened there.

And they - sorry you - are all potential max3D customers. Personally I will purchase it ASAP, unless I run out of money until then. I'd probably try to sell one of my kidneys in that case. =.=

If BRL is happy then it doesn't matter. They make a good product and can live well from it. What more could you really ask for?

BRL are happy with the way they do things or they wouldn't do it that way.
Not everybody has the Corporate obsession to expand, consume and dominate. Some people are just happy doing what they like best.

it matters to me... a poor starving old man, with only a few more days left before i go blind, senile, and totally mad from frustration... and then finally give up and let the angels take me away...

i expected by June i'd be happily typing out my worlds greatest sub game in BlitzMax...

to be honest, while i'd really like em to be happy... i'd really prefer if they'd stop and ask themselves... "hey team, what can we do to make mike a happy camper"...

and then do it...

yesterday...

:)

oh yeah, Smiff... i need a lic key for my new computer for PaceMaker... do i email you the code?

thx


--Mike

Why could you possibly care?

More people using B3d means:
-More money for BR to deliver superior products for longer.
-(Better official support).
-More people to create code that other Blitz users can use.
-More community members to help each-other achieve things.
-More people to prove the pessimists wrong.

Just have to say this:



H&K- you forgot one large type of game- 2D.

First of all, money is clearly not BRLs motivation. Second lots of money does not give you a superior product. In fact the most successful high-tech products are usually the worst, because succesful companies do not produce high quality software - if they did, they wouldn't have enough money to be successful. If Microsoft Windows had to meet the same quality standards as software written at NASA, it would cost 5 billion USD a year. How much do you think Microsoft actually spends on improving Windows?

That's a leap of faith. How many successful companies have good support. Ever tried calling a Dell or Microsoft call center?

No you want to keep BRLs customer base low for that. That way you can make rediculous demands, and they'll be more enclined to meet them. Like say DirectX support for BlitzMAX.

I'll give you that. Although they would need to upgrade the code archives to make it actually useful.

Also more community members to ramble on about how the PS3/Vista/Duke Nukem Forever is going to flop completely, 6 months before it's even out.

I doubt more people would achieve that. The ratio of users vs. people proving the pessimists wrong is much, much too low for that.

Heh, I bet they're too drunk. I mean it is Thursday night and all.

Why? The best games written in Blitz (Hole in One and Sticky Balls) don't exactly have awesome visuals. And Sticky Balls isn't even really a Blitz game anymore anyway.

Focus on your own marketing efforts gentlemen. Then when you're successful, and after a successful takeover of BRL, I'm sure they'll be happy to listen what you have to say about marketing.

A very similar game may well be soon.

Yes - just send me the new code that appears on the startup screen.

thx... will do in a few...

--Mike

Tease...

There is a floating space between BRL and M$. I could easily imagine a enhanced blitzmax where another one is working on enhancing the ide/editor or focusing on importer/exporter for the 3d engine and so on...doesn't automatically turn BRL into M$.


Oh maybe less overworked moderators who make less errors in deleting posts by mistake? ;O)

A can of worms I did open.

yeah but bringing enough to expand and push your products would bring in more, exprienced users and tool developers etc.

Even something like having a proper off topic or public area like in the old days would do much to promote blitz products and provide simple support and community building.

Being able to learn what other people are about, interests, and attracting non coding developers would be a big asset.

There really arent that many dedicated artists that don't do programming here. And thats a real shame. Hard to find talent if everyones stuck with programmer art. And everyone outside of the community scoffs when you say your using something called blitzbasic, Artists as much as the programmers.

I've rarely seen a mention of Blitz anywhere outside of this site. That's not a criticism, its an observation.

Some ideas that might help:

1. Territorial deals with retailers (boxes on shelves) - people would much rather pay money for something they can see, instead of paying to download a file.

2. Deals with companies such as Corel - for example, a 'lite' version of Paintshop which can only export to file formats directly supported by Blitz products, or a lite version of Soundforge which can only load/save WAV or OGG format. These products would be made available through www.blitzbasic.com, increase visibility of Blitz products and increase revenue for all involved.

The trouble with writing games in Blitz, or I guess any other language, is that you need a ridiculous amount of other tools to go with it. Sure you can use free alternatives such as Gimp, but cutting corners is really going to show in your end product.

3. Issue press releases. There are places you can go that distribute to the media worldwide. The bottom line is, nobody is ever going to buy a product until you tell them it exists.

4. Overhaul the site. It currently feels like it exists only for the people that are already here and is not geared towards attracting new customers. One example (and I don't know why this isn't slapping you across the face), Blitz3D gets a mention on the homepage before BlitzMax does - its even touted as your "flagship product".

4a. Make certain areas of the forum 'invisible' to anyone who is not registered. Stuff that goes on there (normally in General Discussion) is going to be a little off-putting to potential customers. You might also open a Q&A forum where such people can ask questions about Blitz's ability. You simply can't cover every aspect of this with demos and people are always going to want to ask questions.

That's because it IS the flagship product - BlitzMax will be one day but is currently too immature.

All I know is that I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the old general discussion forums. Blitz3D had no real third party support, and was incredibly lacking in exporters and information useful to an artist.

I almost left Aerial Antics within the first week, except I got talking to Brad from unwrap3D asking for some changes to be done to support vertex colours and some of the brush and texture flags.

Within a couple of weeks on chatting to the guy those were added and I was actually able to make something look reasonable.

If I was joining now, as an artist without being able to ask specific questions in the forums, I'd have left within a couple of days. Having said that, I wouldn't have been able to join anyway :). Need to buy something first.