Support your fellow developers

If someone has made a module that you use, and they have a donate button, support them.

Also, if someone needs help on a programming question, try to help also. That is the heart of the old saying "what goes around comes around". One day you will need help also.

I agree with what your saying but sometimes it's hard to support lone developers simply because (for me) there's been too much 'grab the cash then ditch'.

I'm still thinking on whether to buy Greys Framework. What stops me is not knowing if it'll be supported in 3 months time. I've been forced to wait at least 3-4 months before paying for anything an indie developer has to sell simply because there seems to be a lot of people dropping support and ditching a project/product 2 weeks after they have started selling it.

What gets on my nerves the most is when someone releases something, I buy it, then a few weeks later they drop the price of the product significantly simply because they're not getting any sales. IMO thats worse than ditching the product.

I'll end it there.

Grey's Framework treads a dangerous line for me. It is the first commercial product to consist mainly of code pulled from the public domain archives or bug fix posts. Regardless of how much secondary code there is, the basic core of fixes can be found by looking around the archives and searching the forum.

Something about a product like this rubs me the wrong way, but maybe I'm the only one.

Nope, I'm talking about cowers modules, and donate buttons... optional support.

Personally I believe my framework is a lot better than grey's framework. I think things like frameworks don't deserve to be sold.

I think all that information is available on this site, you only have to ask, and that is what I mean by developers supporting each other.

I agree with you about helping others, and I don't mean to derail the thread. I believe that when you buy from independent developers, you need to be satisfied with what you receive from the get-go, and not depend on updates that may or may not come to make the product something you'd be proud to own. You really can't expect one person to provide the support you've come to expect from million dollar companies.

Back to the other subject, I think it still needs to be debated about how far is too far with the code archives. What's to stop anyone from collecting it all and selling it as "Blitz's greatest hits"? Nothing, I guess.

..-...-

Wait! I thought the Framework was all Greys code. I didn't know it was stuff borrowed from the codearcs and forum.

Is that legal?

Yes. As far as his framework being entirely code from the Code Archives, I don't know. I'm more inclined to believe that there are alternatives in the code archives and that Grey didn't just rip the stuff out of it.

Don't start getting excited. What you paid for, was a perfectly decent framework.

Lets not turn this thread into a bash-grey-alien thing. They guy is ok, he is being paid for bringing it all together into one lump. If you think of it as paying him for every last bit of code then you're going to hurt for no reason.

Chill out - I didn't start this thread to beat up on him.

I never spoke about the entirety of the code, only the core fixes like minimize and max buttons, mouse pointer restore on titlebar, task and program icon, mouse lag fix, centered window, etc. To Grey's credit, there is a lot of secondary code as I've already mentioned.

I don't mind buying things from other developers, and I do donate when I find something useful for what I am doing. An example being that I have donated twice to the author of the BLIde IDE, which I think is really great and well worth supporting.

Being that most of us are smalltime bedroom coders, people should for the most part only pay for something that they find useful as it is right now, and not for what it could be down the road with more development.

I have so far provided support and updates for any product I have sold and have not had any complaints so far. I do my best to update the products to the wants and needs of those who buy it.

I never promise more than one full year worth of updates and bugfixes, but I have several times gone back to something and updated it anyways and sent out those updates free of charge to anyone who bought it.

I do my best to help others, although I don't have much time for it. So often others have already answered the questions that I could have answered. I have for a long while had tutorials for various blitzPlus/Blitz3D stuff on my website and I hope that it have helped people, although I don't expect anyone to donate me money for it, but I wouldn't mind either :)

I understand the hesitation that comes with buying something like a closed module, especially since it seems like they tend to break with each update to the core language. I have so far had to re-compile and send out with each update, but I do so happily as I want to continue to support those who had enough faith in what I had made that they decided to pay me for it. It would have been much easier to sell it as code only and let them re-compile themselves, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the module idea.

You will just have to make sure that you look at the track-record of the person or company which are offering the product you are interested in and make your own judgement whether its worth the risk or not.

Just to clarify, I haven't bought Greys Framework but intend to. Just gotta wait till Tuesday. I fully appreciate the work Jake has put in to the framework as it saves me all the hassle of doing myself (If I could).

I just thought people couldn't use CodeArc code for commercial purposes. My mistake.

:)

Wish I wasn't asleep when this thread was started :-/ To clarify, I just asked lots of questions on the forums and did lots of research myself and used the answers I got and found out myself to build a basic framework. I also resolved lots of issues myself and got BRL to fix a couple of bugs. The resulting code was carefully combined into a single ready-made piece of code that knits together everything to make a proper professional game framework. This took hours and was painful and boring. No code was in fact lifted from code archives (which are public domain), it was all offered freely or linked to by authors. Anyway, there's only a couple of ways to add an icon to a game, so even if you worked it out 100% idependently, it's going to look the same someone's code.

Furthermore, the technical part of the framework is only about 1% of the code, plus I have my own rather clever timing routine. All the rest is *tons* of custom types I've made to allow you to have a ready-made game structure with screens, music, sound, sprites, buttons, menus, animations, high scores etc. Pracically all you've got to do is replace all the graphics and music and you have a totally different looking game framework ready to write your game within.

The main reasons to buy the framework are a) combined technical code and fixes/workarounds, b) ready made types suitable for game programming, c) complete game framework inc. loading, title, game over, etc d) great way to learn (it's source code not a closed module) e) save hours not having to work out all the annoying problems yourself ... the list goes on. I hope some of you read what my customers have to say about it. They are really pleased with what it contains, the time it has saved, the comments, the documentation, the support, the price (once they see what it contains, they release it is very good value) etc. To reiterate, I'm using this framework for my next game and the game after that etc. so it will continue to be supported because I'm actally using it. Hopefully my track record speaks for itself anyway as someone who does what they say they are going to do.

I'm actually releasing a big update next week with some great stuff in it, including user profiles, map screen, advanced animations etc

I believe I'm helping the community out by offering this product because I could just keep it to myself for my games but I'm letting other people share it for really not much money at all. I need to charge something because this is my day job and I've got a family to support, bills to pay etc. Sure I could give it away for free, but I'd be programming from cardboard box on the street - if my laptop wasn't sold for food.

OEJ: How do you know it's better, you haven't bought mine ;-) Also better for/at what? Falling back to software mode or for quickly making a game with everything important in it? Do you have a demo to post yet? So you are going to give yours away for free when it's done then? Popcap seemed happy to sell their framework :-) I think a framework is a lot more useful than a fancy graphics module you may or may not ever use (to clarify, I'm talking generally here as I don't know what your framework does). Anyway, I'm only teasing, good luck with your code, I look forward to seeing it in action.

Indiepath: UV in morse code? huh?

To go back on topic: I think Noel does a great job (as does Indiepath and others) and that donating is a good thing. I would, except I've never used their code. Also once you know a little bit, helping others is good and only fair. It's the reason I gave away my BlitzPlus libraries and still help out in the forums. Also even just asking questions well and getting good answers can make a good thread which is useful for reference for others.

An interesting point this. I tend to find that the support I get from million dollar companies is uh not so good or outsourced to India or Glasgow call centres or something. When I used to sell Stock Control systems, lots of customers commented that they liked feeling like a big fish in a small sea, in other words they got good quality support because we were a small company that cared about our customers.

- -.-- .--. .. -. --. .. -. -- --- .-. ... . .. ... .- .-.. --- - -- --- .-. . ... .- - .. ... ..-. -.-- .. -. --. .- -. -.. .--. . --- .--. .-.. . - . -. -.. - --- - .- -.- . .- -... .. - -- --- .-. . -. --- - .. -.-. . .-.-.- -- -.-- .--. --- ... - --- .-. .. --. -. .- .-.. .-.. -.-- ... .- .. -.. ... --- -- . - .... .. -. --. . .-.. ... . -... ..- - .- ..-. - . .-. .-. . .- -.. .. -. --. - .... .. ... - --- .--. .. -.-. .- --. .- .. -. .- -. -.. ... . . .. -. --. .... --- .-- .. - -.. . ...- . .-.. --- .--. . -.. .. -.. . -.-. .. -.. . -.. - --- .-. . -- --- ...- . .. - .-.-.-

ok, fair enough.

OT ... sorry



It's comments like that that p*ss me right off!! What exactly are you suggesting of my fellow weegies?

Thats what you get for rambling offtopic on someone's thread grey... u tit :)



I will never sell or give away an asset like that. I will share any part of my framework that I learned from this forum though if people ask.

Last I checked, the popcap framework was free. Not to mention superior to ours in a lot of ways. I would kill to use the popcap framework but I can't get it going in blitz.

First of all, let me say I'd never consider donating via Paypal. They've already ripped me off for about 2000 USD and you are guilty by association. Get your donations from them.

However, I think I'm going to side with Grey Alien for once. Even if he did just rip off the code archives and roll it all into one bundle, he's perfectly entitled to as the source code inn the code archives are public domain.

So what's the point to all this? The point is that GA is charging 25 bucks - roughly an hours salarly for his product. Your question then, as a pragmatic buyer is: "Does The Grey Alien Framework give me more value than one hours worth of work?"

If the answer is yes (and I doubt anyone could write sometihng similar in an hour, but feel free to prove me wrong), then your time is better spent buying his framework, and doing something more useful with yours, being thankful that Grey Alien values his own time so low (or incorrectly thinks he can make up for it in bulk). For example, he actualy took the time to decipher what Indiepath was saying in Morse.

As for Noel Cower, if he ever releases something I have a use for, I would gladly buy it through some creditcard payment portal like share-it. But I'm done letting Paypal and their business criminal associates decide what they want to do with my money.

yeah that's what I've been doing, it's only fair. Hey, when yours is done, you wanna trade?

oops haha. Actually it's on my todo list to check it out for ideas.

I really liked the popcap framework. It lets you do software rendering with filtered edges and at non-integer coordinates. No mac support is ever gonna come though :)

It has its fair share of problems as well (what doesn't) ?

sounds cool about the non-integer coords, but I bet that's pig slow.

Play one of the pop-cap games, they ain't slow :)

Well I just remember how slow all pixel manipulation was in BlitzPlus, that's all.

.... . .-.. .-.. --- .. .. .. -. -.. .. . .--. .- - .... .. .. .-- .... -.-- .. .. .- .-. . .. .. -.-- --- ..- .. .. -- --- .-. ... .. -. --. .. .. .- -. -.-- .-- .- -.-- ..--..

.... . .----. ... / ..- ... .. -. --. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / -.-. --- ... / .. / .--- --- -.- . -.. / .- -... --- ..- - / .... .. ... / -.. . .-.. . - . -.. / .--. --- ... - / .-- .... .. -.-. .... / .-.. --- --- -.- / .-.. .. -.- . / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / ---... -....- -.--.-

And for those who don't understand morse code?

.. .... .- ...- . .-. . .- .-.. .-.. -.-- --. --- -. . .- -. -.. -.. --- -. . .. - -. --- .--

-.-- ..- .--. --..-- / .- -. -.. / ... --- -- . / .--. . --- .--. .-.. . / .... .- ...- . -. .----. - / ..-. .. --. ..- .-. . -.. / --- ..- - / - .... .- - / -.-- --- ..- / -.-. .- -. / . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . / ...- .. .- / .- / --.- ..- .. -.-. -.- / --. --- --- --. .-.. . / ... . .- .-. -.-. .... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-

Anyway:

-... ..- -.-- / - .... . / --. .-. . -.-- / .- .-.. .. . -. / -... .-.. .. - --.. -- .- -..- / ..-. .-. .- -- . .-- --- .-. -.- --..-- / .. - .----. ... / -.-. --- --- .-..

[. -.. .. - . / ---... -.--.- ]

.-. --- ..-. .-.. -....- .- - -....- --- . .--- :)

Moderation on the boards is getting lazy, OEJ you should know better.

right whose fault was this!

Someone got a morse code translator?

http://www.onlineconversion.com/morse_code.htm

-... .- .... --..-- -. --- .-- -.-- --- ..- .----. ...- . --. .. ...- . -. - .... . --. .- -- . .- .-- .- -.--

booo.

-_-

Back to the topic...

I've reserved my opinion on this for quite some time. So, what I have to say is really of no disrespect to others who have worked hard to develop some great stuff, but merely an observation (which I'm sure more people silently share than just myself)

I've really never quite understood the "tools for sale" mentality that runs rampant here. For me, anyway, half the fun is figuring out how something is done. If someone wants to share information without a catch, I feel that's a great gesture, and actually cultivates the community spirit. Heck, that might even encourage me to help them out if they get stuck on a particular problem.

Honestly, this is why so many open source languages (and not so open, such as .Net) are successful. While they are certainly not devoid of those selling components and frameworks, there are just as many communities that are out there to share the knowledge freely and thereby making the platform stronger. It draws new customers/users and attention to the platform, and the developers of the language, are in a pressured position to deliver bugfixes and product upgrades in a more timely manner.

There is an over-abundance of tools for sale here specific to the blitz platform (more than I've seen anywhere for the size of the customer base, quite honestly) And while they are neat and dandy and such, I'd be curious to see what completed games out there have actually utilized some of these frameworks and tools. It could very well be a fair number of them, but I don't see them get nearly the amount of exposure as the tools themselves. If the games developed can't be evangelists for the tools, then what can be?

You didn't see Popcap give away their framework until they had some real-world applications out there.

Same with Epic and ID. You never seem to see these frameworks or engines for sale until they have a flagship product showcasing the capabilities.

The sure-fire way to ensure that a developer will support a toolkit is if s/he has to maintain it for their own products.

You really don't see any of that happening here. A toolkit is released, the developer gets bored, and the product gets abandoned. Why? The developer doesn't have an investment beyond what s/he's sold you. And the pricing? Once you buy component A, B and C, you've spent as much if not more as you did on Blitz itself. What's more, there's no guarantee that all of the components will play nicely with each other.

I know some here make their living by this. As a father and someone with a family myself, I can respect that. However, I've learned that the real world doesn't care about your problems or how you make your money or how you support yourself and your family. I'm not suggesting that people should work for free, but rather understand what people (or EMPLOYERS) are willing to pay for what you have to offer. In my opinion, offering services to a group of people for profit that struggle the same way you do is not the answer.

A focussed common goal seems to make a bit more sense.. such as a community toolkit that allows everyone to create games (or utilities) that can be targeted and be competitive outside of the tiny developer vacuum you're in.

Again.. just my opinion(s).. and you know what people say about opinions...

@RocketGnome, I know exactly what you mean. Damien and I tried REAL hard to convince Antony that his Aurora engine should be sold after we had finished our game and proved its worth.

We decided to go our seperate ways soon after Ant released his engine, because then he was only interested in making a quick buck, and jumping on the game project.

I think some peoples attitudes are really poor. On the other hand, there are people that release tools for free that get disillusioned by the lack of interest and help offered.

Since the Aurora thing fell through, Damien and I have been working with ChrisC on his open source Ogre engine. After 3 weeks of no real help from the community, he decided to make it closes source, and only release binaries for the engine for free.

Seems like you can't win whichever way you try and do things.

Has he? That's a shame then. I was going to ask him if he wanted to allocate a bit of work in my direction when I had finished my current project, but I'm not lucky enough to be able to afford to drop paying projects in the middle to work on community projects. Definitely a shame, because that was looking promising. Ah well, I can see why he would feel disillusioned.

Interesting points. I'm enjoying my making framework and should be making several games with it (see my track record to know that I'm not all talk). Others who have already made games have bought my framework and will be using it for new games too, so this tool may actually be one of the first to appear in commercial games. Having said that, I'm pretty sure Indiepath used his tools in his games.

He doesn't seem like the kind of person who would become disillusioned, but if he was expecting it to be much of a community effort I'm affraid he's missed the mark, quite a bit.

The number of members here with significant insight into Ogre and/or C++ to provide much in the way of useful contribution is probably no more than a handful at best, and likely they (like Gabriel) have other priorities.

Yeh, that's a shame. I'm surprised that there's seemingly little interest, but it might take more than 3 weeks to get the momentum going.

@FlameDuck: I could be wrong but I think he wanted mostly feedback and feature requests rather than C++/Ogre gurus, although I'm sure he'd be glad of any help in that area too.

You could be right, although I don't see how making it a closed source project, is going to improve the ammount and/or quality of feedback and/or feature requests.

Anyway, since he AFAIR started working on it as a direct competitor to Aurorororora, copying that feature set would probably be a good place to start. Personally I have no use for a 3D module at this time, and have far too little time to commit to BlitzMAX programming in general to be of much use - although I'm sure it's an interesting project.

Just to say, If BLIde exists, is becouse of the user's support. I think is a good example of what can be done when people helps.