Attention of Mark Sibly and Blitz Research

Hi,

Proposal: open beta testing for products you have bought.

* Detail: If person buys maxgui, an extra forum for bug testing only max gui shows. This is tied to user account.

* Abolish closed beta testing and flameduck mentality of "special club".

This way all bugs get seen - early and are dealt with efficiently. Thank you for your attention.

-Rob

That would be good, but there would be too many imbeciles jumping up and down saying:
"I bought this product, so it should be good!"
...and other people who just plain don't realize that a buggy beta does not mean a buggy final product, thus killing business.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

Still would be nice though.

I doubt there would be imbeciles. Give it a try. Have some faith, please. Beta means beta, everyone knows that. It would not kill business.

...expecting a good product for your money? How does that make one an imbecile?
I agree with One Eyed Jack. The current 'team' obviously couldn't beta test their way out a wet paper bag. Action is needed.

Lmao!

I agree. If its a hidden forum, only ppl who have already bought it would know of the "bugs", so it wouldnt kill business

The situation needs to be improved, and this definitely has the potential to improve it. It's a closed section, so it has no affect on public perception of the product. In all honesty, I doubt I would find time to do much( any?) beta testing, but I'm sure a lot of people would be only too pleased to help. It demonstrably works with other languages and tools, so why not?

Just pointing out that it would need to very prominently state: "This is a beta".

It would be nice, definietly.

Sounds Interesting...

Sounds like a sensible proposal.

I would pay for the 3d module now, and the fact it's a beta product is clear enough to indicate incomplete.

I think this approach gives BRL extra income, customers get to try out the product (all-be-it a little rough around the edges) and seeing the product evolve and improve (and be involved) would be an interesting prospect. Currently the complete lack of feedback on progress leads too frustration - this would help the community feel involved.

Just to be clear the original intent wasn't to pressure for the max3D module, but sort of early adopter. It would be counter productive if you all started chanting for the 3D module...

Not chanting - but if it's working then let's take a look.

Stuff the 3D module. There's enough problems that need fixed already (which I think is what OEJ is trying to get addressed here)

I agree with OEJ.

Rather than mark products as beta, I think they should be marked as 'experimental' or 'test version'. So much software people use these days is marked as beta that its meaning is somewhat lost. Clearly defining something as not-for-release should limit the 'I paid for this and it doesn't work' response.

Nice idea, though it's not new.

There isn't a problem of finding bugs at the moment.
See, the bug forum is full of them. It is a problem on how to fix these faster. It's really frustrating that the same bug is reported over and over and it "seems" like nothing is happening to fix it.

It is all about how wii (the community) can help Mark and his team to eliminate bugs faster.

Haha, the lengths people will go too to get an update.

There already is one. It's called "BlitzMax Bug Reports". I don't know why you're not a beta tester any more Rob, but I can't imagine there isn't a good reason for it. Just get over it already.

I'm sorry everyone is so disappointed about the massive ammount of work we beta testers have done. In our defense I would like to point out that we do this in our spare time, and that we are only human. It is not plausible for us to test every logic construct there is, or even a significant number of these.

However should you discover a bug, I can only urge you to post in the relevant bug report section, with a concise bit of sourcecode that clearly reproduces the error.

I sincerely apologize to any person here who honestly thinks that their problems, such as they may be, is my fault for inadequately testing BlitzMAX or MaxGUI.

On a related note, isn't that exactly what's happening here tho'? I would say that what the evidence shows to be likely, is not in favour of your position.

@ENAY, i don't think it's going to a length to get an update. I think people are pissed of at some of the simple things not working correctly.

This is the single biggest problem with the bug forum and how it operates at the moment. If you expect someone to fix a problem, you need to provide an example of it happening. The shorter the example the better, as that helps to narrow the problem down. In many ways, I don't think you should even be able to post in the bug forum without a bit of code.

I don't disagree that there are currently a number of fairly major bugs in 'max and maxgui, and that these need fixing asap, but even where there is consensus that a problem is genuine, it is rare that we see good example code.

Personally, I think a marginally more formal approach to bugs would help. The entire beta test team should be able to highlight threads with genuine, reproducible bugs, that do have a decent example. Mark and skid could then ignore trawling the bug forum, and only watch for these specially marked bugs. And fix them quicker.

Mr. Picklesworth;

Full quote:

"That would be good, but there would be too many imbeciles jumping up and down saying:
"I bought this product, so it should be good!"
...and other people who just plain don't realize that a buggy beta does not mean a buggy final product, thus killing business.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

Still would be nice though. "

Question/Point arising:

BRL customer base contains a high enough proportion of imbeciles to warrant that sort of concern? Surely not?

c'mon guys... leave Mark alone... please...

i know how you all feel... at least i think i have an idea how you feel... i am probably the most anxious to get my lil grubbies on the goodies, but for god's sake, what is this gonna accomplish...

give the guy a break, he's delivered in the past... doesn't that count for anything...

--Mike

You know what really annoys me? The fact people make a sensible balanced remark - in this case helping with beta testing and possible improvements to how this process can be made more efficient.

Then somebody comes out and says everythings wonderful and stop picking on Mark.

so get annoyed... ya know, i'm really getting kinda sick and tired of all this shit... what do ya think Mark & Company are doing... sitting around with their heels up in the air, sipping martinis...

this is supposed to be a community... but it seems more like a goddamn zoo lately... plenty of clowns with nothing better to do... every one an expert on what should and shouldn't be done...

if ya really don't like the way things are going, then opt to use another tool...

the guy is doing the best he can... what more do you want from him... blood...

if some people would devote the same energy and time they spend here on completing their projects, or doing something constructive... well, there'd be a lot less of this kinda stuff...

what's happening here is unfair... and that's what is really annoying me...

if Mark were to turn around and tell all of you where to go, it would serve you right...

he works hard to give you the best for the buck... an obviously thankless endeavor... but to push and push like this, well... i'm sorry... this aint right...

noone said anything about everything being wonderfull Steve... where the hell did you read that... i don't agree with everything that has happened here, all the censorship, but for god's sake people... to go on and on about it, then to call the man out onto the carpet like this... it's just not right, nor is it justifiable...

think about it... or don't... i'm startin not to give a damn about a any more... like a bunch of whining schoolkids, when everything is fine, everyone is all smiles... when things get a lil difficult... when one would expect you to be at your best, we start to self destruct...

--Mike

I don't think you read anything correctly, and have gone ranting on about this. This has nothing to do with the 3D module and everything to do with helping fix existing bugs more efficiently.



Sorry, but I'm saying there's an entire forum of paying customers that will find the bugs for you, much sooner. I am not asking for a product that isn't released, but to open up testing completely for beta (this means code-finished) products we have paid for, or have an early adopter option for.



This differs from the existing system which is: fix bugs, let the closed beta test, then release a new update. That is clearly not working very well is it?



Lets not be childish about this, no-one is knocking the existing tiny beta team or asking to get early max 3d. That is not what this thread is about at all.

i'm not talking about you in particular...

the whole tone of this thread has taken a sour note as it has progressed...

and as far as me ranting, it's Mother's Day... my day to rant...

now give this mutha some slack as well... will ya...

--Mike

It hadn't til you joined in, ordering folk about as usual and hurling abuse.

I agree, so I have made things a bit more clearer in the above post. I am not interested in becoming part of a tiny closed knit beta team, contrary to flameducks sour remarks. I don't have time for it as I have my own game to finish.


I am asking, can we all share an open beta mentality? I see it working *so* well in some places such as the TV3D community and Torque EA.


Beta means no feature requests are being added, and you have the opportunity to catch those bugs really early, maybe make a proper difference to it, instead of letting a bug linger for perhaps months (which has been the case).

thks guy...

in all likelyhood, you know that's not gonna happen... anyways, if in the unlikely event that it did, can ya stop for a second and consider the outcome of such a move...

--Mike

Ive seen several products that include all customers in beta testing. I would have to agree, it lends itself to faster development/improvements ect.

>Ive seen several products that include all customers in
>beta testing.

DarkBASIC Pro?

Or is that Alpha testing?


Andy

fankly I'm a tad disapointed both with the beta testers (sorry guys I know its part time and I'm guessing unpaid) and much more with the bug forum

the mem leak(S) in the gui module had been in a while, I spotted it the first round of production testing for an app about to goto a private customer (I'd previously just really used the gui for quick hacks and didnt do any in depth testing) bit embarasing when I told the customer it was nearly ready!...

When I reported the bug (there were numerous, but caused by the same technique being used in a number of places) I had to jump through hoops, post screen shots etc, when I'd already posted a small simple piece of code that clearly demonstrated the problem.

Having said that, once someone realised it was a bug, it was dealt with fairly promptly

its not just for this one occasion that I'm now reluctant to report bugs (as I'm sure others are) at best the bugs forum is a frustrating place, at the very least there should be a read-only forum that holds acknowledged and dealt with bugs.

It might also be nice to mention bug discovers nicks in the readme if a particular bug is mentioned...

Well I'm up for putting the 3D module on hold, until many of the problems with the Blitzmax engine are sorted.

It's a good job you're all windows users though, you should try Blitzmax under Mac or Linux and then assess the problems you're having.

I take it there's worse things on the mac/linux side then?

lol - I dont know about mac, but for a long time Linux version was unusable, and even now code doesnt behave the some on both platforms... other basic compilers manage it okay!

i may give it a go:) interesting at least, I feel for mac and linus users