Aurora, ColdSteel, 3Impact, TV3D....for BMax?

Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Aurora, ColdSteel, 3Impact, TV3D....for BMax?

What's better in users' opinion?

They're made by Blitzers, used by Blitzers.
The consideration is I want to put my money in.

There're many choices now, still no Max3D :(

As 3Impact & TV3D for BMax are actually "wrappers" and Win32 Only...

The major things I want to know are ColdSteel & Aurora.

I really like Aurora myself, it feels pretty natural, a lot like Blitz3D and has decent art pipelines, and a mature scriptable material/shader system that suits both coders and artists.

Only other one that interested me was TV3D, but rumour has it that it still has a way to go for release, and at the price I'd like to be able to try before I buy into it.

I'm really likeing Ogre that Aurora uses, and the others seem so so. Irrlicht has a terrible art path with no consolidated 3D format that works, so you have to use a mishmash none of which are particularly good.

Evak... could you tell us a lil more about the scriptable mateial shader system... how easy/difficult is it to implement in from the Aurora framework?

thx

--Mike

the scriptable material system is all Ogre and just works in Aurora. You can save your meshes with seperate materials or have one single .material file for the entire thing. YOu have up to 99 UV channels and both GL and D3D support DDS compressed textures including DXTC 1,3,5

here's a simple single pass mask between 2 textures with an alpha example.

Simple texture transition
Supose you have three quads representing a ground plane. Quad A you want to be dirt, Quad B you want to be a combination of dirt and grass, and finally quad C is grass. Here is a simple material for Quad B that does not require external creation of a dirt/grass texture.

Material Requirements

source.png - Source texture



dest.png - Desination texture



alpha_blend.png - A image that has the alpha mask we want to borrow for the transition.



The Rule of blending image: The black (or color) area will be the source texture, and the transparent area will be destination texture

Material Template

material Template/texture_blend
{
   technique
   {
      pass
      {
         texture_unit
         {
           texture source.png
         }
         texture_unit
         {
            texture alpha_blend.png             
            colour_op alpha_blend
         }
         texture_unit
         {
            texture dest.png
            colour_op_ex blend_current_alpha src_texture src_current
         }
      }
   }
}


The result




Best place to look at is the docs since there is so much of it.


Techniques:

Each material starts with a technique, which allows you to set up a series of materials that can apply to the same mesh.

A)fallback techniques that the engine uses when determining the features of your GPU.

B) LOD material techniques, like regular LOD for meshes, you set the LOD for a material with distance from camera, and depending on how distant the mesh is a unique material can be used, so you can switch from a fancy shader material up close to a simple texture in the distance.

Next you have Passes, Passes are kind of like a B3D Brush only with a lot more options. You can have as many passes as your hardware supports, and each pass can currently have up to 4 texture units which you can set all the usual diffuse, specular, ambient, and blendmodes etc. And each texture unit Bitmap layer also has a huge selection of blendmodes.

Here's your Pass blendmodes (like B3D brush blendmodes)

replace
Replace all colour with texture with no adjustment.

add
Add colour components together.

modulate
Multiply colour components together.

alpha_blend
Blend based on texture alpha.

Default: colour_op modulate


And Texture unit blendmodes:

source1
Use source1 without modification

source2
Use source2 without modification

modulate
Multiply source1 and source2 together.

modulate_x2
Multiply source1 and source2 together, then by 2 (brightening).

modulate_x4
Multiply source1 and source2 together, then by 4 (brightening).

add
Add source1 and source2 together.

add_signed
Add source1 and source2 then subtract 0.5.

add_smooth
Add source1 and source2, subtract the product

subtract
Subtract source2 from source1

blend_diffuse_alpha
Use interpolated alpha value from vertices to scale source1, then add source2 scaled by (1-alpha).

blend_texture_alpha
As blend_diffuse_alpha but use alpha from texture

blend_current_alpha
As blend_diffuse_alpha but use current alpha from previous stages (same as blend_diffuse_alpha for first layer)

blend_manual
As blend_diffuse_alpha but use a constant manual alpha value specified in <manual>

dotproduct
The dot product of source1 and source2

blend_diffuse_colour
Use interpolated colour value from vertices to scale source1, then add source2 scaled by (1-colour).
Source1 and source2 options

src_current
The colour as built up from previous stages.

src_texture
The colour derived from the texture assigned to this layer.

src_diffuse
The interpolated diffuse colour from the vertices (same as 'src_current' for first layer).

src_specular
The interpolated specular colour from the vertices.

src_manual
The manual colour specified at the end of the command

Anyway, here's the manual that covers Materials, there's a hell of a lot of it.

http://www.ogre3d.org/docs/manual/manual_14.html#SEC23

To get a quick impression, I highly recommend looking at the images of the Ogre material editor in 3dsmax, which shows you a lot of the features in a relatively easy to read UI.

http://ofusion.inocentric.com/materials.html

I am putting my money on hold for Blitzmax Max3D module.

I will not be purchasing user made modules, not reliable enough, not cross platform, etc... or the creator is known to be really aggressive or attitudy - ie Aurora.

Cygnus and I all but stopped game dev earlier this year until the Ogre wrapper came along. We dabbled with torque, but if your used to something more freeform torque feels extremely limiting, on top of which it has the worst art pipeline I have ever used. We chose to use Aurora as we can't afford to do nothing for another year and I havent seen anything else that comes close to it for Bmax.

If you don't want to take a chance and only doing fairly casual games, then you should probably stick to Blitz3D till the official module arrives. After waiting a good 18 months and no ETA and no real expectations for another year we weren't willing to do that.

btw... where is Ant, we may have lost him for a while, eh...

THX Evak for the thorough explanation...

i'm looking at the sites now...

--Mike

The creator of BlitzMax Max3d, while not at all aggresive, certainly has a " Don't ask any questions it'll be ready when its ready and I ain't saying which year " type attitude.

The problem is people are losing faith in the BlitzMax 3d module - no news = no knowledge = no planning possible = no confidence = search for alternative = wave bye-bye to Blitz.
The makers of Torque, DBPro and Truevison etc must really love BlitzMax .

Not much point in asking user opinions on my TV3D module, since I can't distribute the files necessary to use it until TV3D's creators make them available and hence no one but me is using it.

As for my take on it, I believe I've said before, it hits the three main points I was looking for. It's very fast, it has a huge number of features and it's ridiculously easy to use. An added bonus is that the TV3D developers are very talkative, bugs are fixed promptly and requests are taken seriously.

Only other one that interested me was TV3D, but rumour has it that it still has a way to go for release, and at the price I'd like to be able to try before I buy into it.

No idea where you heard that, certainly not from me. The module has been complete for weeks and the engine itself has already reached the state where it's ready for a new release, which means the whole thing will be available just as soon as the download is officially made available. Of course, you are working with Ant on Aurora so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

Why is it impossible to get official responses ? That is what I would like to know.

I mean, why not keep the people who are paying your salary up to date ?

NAh, were using aurora, but when he decided to sell it, Cygnus and I stopped being involved in the engine development side of things. We only want to make games and are willing to take a chance with ants engine.

The info on the TV3D stuff came from searching for info comparing TV3D 6.5 to other engines. It's all I had to go on and I have no first hand experience with 6.5 whatsoever.

Biggest reason for choosing Ogre initialy was the 3dsmax art pipeline and scene loader library that enable you to design and build everything using max as a level editor much like the excellent B3D pipeline.

Evak? All this stuff you wrote aren't Ogre3D?
Aurora is't just a wrapper of some Open source Libs with a friendly to use functions on top of them?
I don't wand to be ofensive as I never touched Ogre3D and Aurora can you point something in rendering that Aurora handles better than Ogre3D and makes Aurora unique.

I plan on using the Truevision 3D wrapper when it comes out just to see if there's any advantage to moving development of my game from C++ to BMax. Don't really see much point in it when I have my engine for BMax and TV3D for everything else I use.

That's pretty funny Ant, but we know it was you because we suspect that Skidracer can spell "fascism" correctly.

Damn my inferior spelling inability. It is my kryptonite.


Aurora 3D Max The #1 3D engine for BlitzMax Powered by Ogre The industry standard high grade 3D engine five years in the making - Dx9/OGL Update 4 Released 20/04/2006
So good it has Skidracer running scared, deleting topics and generally frailing his limbs about in a comical fashion.
Aurora Net - The Ultimate 3D engine for the ultimate language, C# is out now. Out Now
Pro version - Click here to buy now! 40 GBP
Lite Version - Click here to buy now! 20 GBP
Official Forums
Online Docs
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Until now till midnight, Aurora PRO for BLITZMAX will be avaiaible for the same price as Aurora Lite.
Just buy the lite version and you'll recieve the full pro version with BlitzNet Optica, Max AVI and more.

You'll also recieve full updates as if you paid for the pro version.

someone asked me to talk about the materials and what have you so I did. There's quite a bit of stuff about Aurora itself elsewhere. It's basicly gives you blitz3D like control of ogre from within Bmax. It's a bit early to call it a full blown game engine, just like Blitz3D isn't one.

Currently you have to create your own game engine framework and build your game as you would in blitz3d. But Ant's currently making some general purpose modules like AI for the game which will filter down to the engine, and can be used for most types of games I can think of.

Aurora is a joke. ColdSteel is by far superior.

TV3D 6.5 (still in closed beta) cannot be compared, it is best by far but in a few months ColdSteel will be very near it.

It's a joke is it? Actually, it's pretty good. Don't see what happened to bug you?

I think I am probably going to wait on the Max3D module. I want the surety of knowing that a) it is definitely fully cross-platform compatible and everything works (minus a few bugs), b) it is supported by BRL, c) there will probably be a dedicated forum for discussing it d) it will be nicely integrated with the rest of BlitzMax, e) it is developed by more than one person (i guess) so probably will be updated and fixed sooner and better (current delay due to development aside).

About ColdSteel, my plan is to release a new update this sunday evening / monday morning. The webpage will be updated, the documentation has been updated, many bugs have been fixed, and a lot of features requested by the users of ColdSteel have been added (to be honest, I think that ALL the features users requested have been added): render to texture support, attach nodes to bones, some other things, and definitely, the important one: support for FX shaders.

And of course, development continues. I have many many plans for ColdSteel. The lack of a unified well supported 3D format in IrrLicht will be solved in ColdSteel, with the addition of the custom .msh format, and a set of exporters and converters.

Good luck with that Jedive, several months ago I was looking at both coldsteel and irrlicht but gave up pretty early due to the poor 3d format support.

If you can fix that I think you will go a long way towards fixing what I felt was wrong. I don't know how irrlicht compares to ogre performance wise as I never got into it enough to want to push it (mostly art path again).

Compared to Torque and B3D Aurora is stupidly fast, but so far I havent had any other modern engines to compare it to.

At the moment in my big test levelI have a 50,000 triangle level with animated conveyor belts and monorail hauling things overhead, its about 1.2 KM long industrial complex that double backs on itself overhead, and with a handfull of vehicles and the whole 50,000 triangle level casting dynamic shadows, some animated I still get 100-130 FPS which is a lot of fun after using B3D the last couple of years.

Can't wait to see how it works optimized, at the moment all the level is drawn 80% of the time so I'm itching to see what happens when I start cleaning it up.

If the bmax 3d module by BRL will be as good as Blitz3D was then it's surely worth to wait for it.

I just hope it gets a good art pipeline quicker than Blitz3D did. When I turned up .B3D was useless through lack of support. There was no way to get lighting into the engine at all when we first started Aerial Antics.

Was just by chance that I pettitioned brad about better unwrap support with basic features like vertex colours and a week later there was the beginnings of a useable art art path. Not sure when Blitz3D came out, but I think it had been out about 2 years by the time I appeared on the scene.

So one of my concerns is that Bmax won't be much use for making games without pipeline tools, so lets hope things move along a lot quicker this time.

If you're an enthusiast go with Aurora, if you're a visionary, go for ColdSteel. If you're a pragmatist, go for TV3D or 3Impact. If you're a conservative, go for Blitz3D.

Waiting for Max3D is not an option if you have salaries to pay in the mean time.

Heh, it's funny Evak ... that Aerial Antics was done before any of the really cool 3DSMax exporters etc. It's essentially all the old Blitz stuff before any of the really great art path options came about. It's pretty sick what we did back then considering how we had to build the levels. To think we were only a few months ahead of the correct tools for the job ... ah well!

Anyway, I'm just about all into Torque now. It's not that I don't think Blitz is great ... it is! However, I just feel that the Torque platform is still the place to be if you really want to make it big.

If you are going to be using BMax though then Aurora looks like the best choice to me at the moment. I'd probably just wait for the official module but the demo of FMC was pretty cool. It didn't run fast at all for me but I think it was mainly the wall of physics objects slowing my CPU down.

Anyway, I'm just about all into Torque now. It's not that I don't think Blitz is great ... it is! However, I just feel that the Torque platform is still the place to be if you really want to make it big.

Same here. I read your recent "server" blog over there with interest - hope you get it sorted soon. It's cool that I see a fair few Blitzers popping up on the Torque site.

I just hope it gets a good art pipeline quicker than Blitz3D did. When I turned up .B3D was useless through lack of support.

I've been assuming Max3D will support b3d file format. If so, that makes your very important consideration a moot point.

Heh, What computer were you using Jeremy? my athlon 1200 with GF3 runs the demo at over 30fps

I think BRL should be discussing some of what will be available in their 3D module. (EG: will .B3d still be supported)

Is the module months away or years away???? Come on guys you are going to lose some important members of the community.

Does BRL still care??

B3D is an extendable format, I hope they keep it :-)

Gimme a 3d-engine which is crossplatform, able to work with a common format like fbx, stable, well documented, easy to use, built on a nice concept, offers some up to date features,... then personally i don't care if it's from brl or someone else as long as there is support.

If only looking at the 3d-engine i think ogre is better than irrlicht but irrlicht also has some points for instance when size matters.

Anyway wasn't Neverwinter Nights 3d-engine called Aurora?

My stupid Athlon 64 2800+ :(

The demo ran fine as long as the blocks weren't in the scene.

Just checked it again, even if I'm not looking at the blocks it runs maybe 10 - 15 FPS at the most. It's not playable really, I'd imagine without the shadows it'd probably be quicker I don't know.

I just checked with FRAPS. If I'm looking toward the center of the arena from the outside, 4 FPS. If I'm looking out from the center of the arena I get about 17 - 21, and if I'm at the outside looking out it goes up to 40. But pretty much playing the game to try and shoot the guys etc... is impossible. I know this CPU doesn't run at full speed though from that Aquamark test it only did a little beter that your Athlon 1200 I remember. So yeah it ranges from 4 - 40 FPS.

Oh and that was in 640 X 480 X 32 full screen.

hmm, I think there might be something fishy there, those tests we did with your 7800 and the 2800CPU were compared to my 6600GT athlon64 and you were faster after 1024x768.

My A1200 GF3 that gets about 30FPS is 5 years old now.

Going to check what I get in GL and D3D with the demo, since GL is a lot slower than DX9 in ogre.

Just tried it on the a64 3000 with 6600GT and using fraps

D3D I get over 200fps when I move away from the blocks and stuff and it drops to about 100fps when its quite busy. Doesn't seem to make much difference if I'm in 640x480 or 1024x768

I only tried GL at 640x480 and that maxed at about 120FPS.

Considering how the resolution makes no difference on mine, it's probably the CPU but surely a sempron 2800 isn't that much slower, especialy when compared to a 5 year old 1.2ghz system with GF3 :(

Nah, the 2800+ is still hooked to the 9600XT card. The other thing is the Ogre resets my system if I try to use DX9.

>BRL thought it might be competing with BlitzMax 3D

O.o I thought BRL is open @ 3rd party modules/tools(as in most case they even IGNORES, some good thing like framewrok assist was never integrated in....)

That's the most annoying boot error ever, diablo. And they still haven't fixed it!

But for how long can you wait for "MAX3D".. No timeline when it going to be released not much about what it will contain. Just alot of hype in the forums. I am so disepointed at Brl´s way to handle this. And this with Antony i just cant understand all these attacs to him.. I guess many of the posters not even bought for example VividGL, I did! But hey it did not cost much so what!
Aurora+Blitzmax is a good solution. And yes Gmans irrlicht mod+blitzmax is a good solution and so on... Take a look at your gamedesign and then look for the best solution for YOUR game.

But for how long can you wait for "MAX3D".
Well that would be up to the individual. In my case, I can wait until Feburary 1st 2007. Isn't that cool? I have an exact date on how long I'm willing to wait. Ofcourse I won't actually be waiting, there is capital to secure and people to hire, and all that, but I can wait until then. If Max3D isn't out by then, yes I'll be forced to take a look at other solutions. If Aurora is still around by then, I'll tell you what I think of it. With any luck there'll even be a demo out, but more importantly it will have proven whether or not it is a suitable pragmatic business solution, and thus whether it can sustain a mainstream market.

Good luck with that Jedive, several months ago I was looking at both coldsteel and irrlicht but gave up pretty early due to the poor 3d format support.
In one or two version, ColdSteel will have it's own mesh format, solving the problems IrrLicht currently has (which basically is that all the formats it supports are basically half-implemented).

In one or two version, ColdSteel will have it's own mesh format, solving the problems IrrLicht currently has (which basically is that all the formats it supports are basically half-implemented).
What about tools to get from whatever format (Lightwave and 3D Studio MAX from the looks of things) to this new Coldsteel mesh format?

..good question...

currently the art tools I know of for ogre3D are:

3D Studio Max Mesh & Animation Exporter v1.0.7
AC3D v4 Mesh and Material Exporter
AC3D v5 Mesh and Material Exporter
Blender Mesh & Animation Exporter v1.0.7
CEGui Mesh Viewer 1.0.6
Command-line Tools v1.2.0RC2
Lightwave Converter
Maya 6.0 Exporter
Maya 6.5 Exporter
Maya 7 Exporter
Milkshape 3D Exporter v1.2.0
Particle Editor v1.2.0
SoftImage XSI 5.0 Exporter v1.2.0RC2
Wings3D Exporter
Gile[s] Exporter

Ofusion 3DSmax scene exporter with C++ OSM Scene loader lib

A 3rd party .OSM exporter for Maya that you can use with the Scene loader lib

So for free you have blender, and cheap shareware you have milkshape. But to get the best results you need something like a high end app with good material support, thats if you don't want to have to code all the materials by hand. Quite involved if you want proper control.

Like sswift and Diablo I find myself waiting out for the Max3D module, because as sswift puts it "All the code people will release will be written for that, not Aurora" and that my friends is a compelling reason to buy. Stick with the market leader.

Go with the masses from yours? Since when have you altered to follow a microsoft-user-thinking? :O)

See what I mean? My post was deleted for no reason.

I have a reason for it sswift.

Your post was deviating from the current topic of this thread and thus removed. That's got to be it. I'm trying to think like a moderator now.

I hope Max3D comes with a complete set of tools. If the price should be higher.. no problems. And i cant understand why there is no EA version of Max3D or even a Milestone or spec. chart.. Just some nonfreq updated worklogs.

Wow, just noticed that swifty.

Go with the masses from yours? Since when have you altered to follow a microsoft-user-thinking? :O)
Well my reasons are different (I believe Max3D will give me a significant competitive advantage in terms of productivity and training). As for the microsoft-user attitude, you need to understand how they think, in order to sell stuff to them.

See what I mean? My post was deleted for no reason.
No it wasn't. It was deleted for a reason you don't understand and/or agree with. There's a difference.

I hope Max3D comes with a complete set of tools. If the price should be higher.. no problems.
I agree. Max 3D needs to be a whole product, not 'just' a 3D game engine. Although I can't say I care about a milestone or specification chart.

heh, been trying to convince Ant that Aurora needs to be a proper product with a demo, proper formatted and sectioned docs, preferably with bookmarks. Basic examples and samples with media. Some kind of trial etc. Maybe example tools that let you quickly play with the engine and understand what it can do. Something that makes it a package.

I'm hoping that Bmax comes with complete .B3D support out of the box, so you can still use older tools untill the format is properly adopted by third parties.

Perhaps BRL can let established tools like Gile[s] get registered for a early beta version in advance of public release. I know that Simonh has already started working on a B3D loader and renderer for Bmax (helped him by providing media) so I'm hopefull that that will arrive, perhaps even before the official 3D module.