Is indie gaming really innovative?

I was thinking about this the other day, and thought maybe I'd stir the coals here and see what everyone thinks..

One of the big drives and so-called advantages of the independent game community is it's ability to develop and market games without the risk of complacency... While the corporate-based development companies churn out me-too after me-too game, the indy community has long prided itself on it's strength of innovation and risk-free approach.

After perusing several independent game publishing sites, I'm beginning to think that's not entirely true. At least if you actually want to get your game published and make a buck or two off of it.

Understandably so, these publishers need to make money to survive. Risk doesn't just affect larger, commercial software, and target markets have to be identified to create a niche' that brings in revenue afterall.

My question is... has independent development become just as complacent if you intend to try to sell your game? In my observation, it seems to be the case.

I'm a fan of the match-3-of-the-same-shape-or-color formula as much as anyone else... but how many different variations of this can we churn out? How is this different than the ruts that commercial developers fall into (ooo look, another sandbox, run around and do whatever you want with an inner city theme)

Is this just because these puzzly type games are the only types of games presented to publishers? Or are these the only types of games that the publisher will entertain?

I've also noticed that indie publishers tend to be very "Nintendo-ish" in their choice of audience. You'll never see Pop-cap publish something "edgy". The one shooter that they publish is a very benign tank game. You'd never see anything like Birdie's "zombie blast" demo coming from them.. (unless of course, the object was to shoot 3 zombies of the same color and they pop humorously into confetti rather than a large puddle of blood).

One may argue that how a zombie explodes has little to do with game play. That may very well be correct. The creative (or psychotic.. take your pick) side of me isn't sure if I like the idea that censorship is necessary to be successful. In contrast, for instance, many of the most successful independent films are applauded for their edginess and shocking content. Are games exempt from this?

I know that there are some independent publishers who frequent the forums. It would be interesting to hear their insight, and opinion on this...

There are also a few developers here who've had their works published. Have you found yourself developing your game around your market rather than creating something that find's it's own niche? Is this selling out or working smart? Does writing for your audience discourage creativity? Understandably.. if income from a game is what you do to survive, it's always best to go the "safe" route rather than starve.

I just thought this might make a good discussion. The intent here is not to criticize anyone, but more of study and self reflection as to where published independent development is today, and if it really is as far removed from the commercial model it dares to call rigid.

Innovation is cool ... but so is money. Initially, I THINK the independent movement was started because people missed the days when you worked on a game with maybe 2 - 15 people and you actually felt like you had a hand in its development. I don't think people particularly like being a cog in a 100 or so person development team or being shafted by going to work for the big game company and having the locks changed on you.

There are a lot of other reasons ... but the innovation factor came into play because it's true ... if your independent you can do whatever the hell you want. Of course if you want to make money you've also got to cater to an audience. I think that Nintendo does a good job of walking the line between innovation and serving it's niche. Also, Nintendo is non-offensive which is why you see the majority of the so called independent publishing labels following suit.

Pop-Cap for all intents and purposes isn't like a real indie developer anymore. They've got way too much riding to do anything that's not marketable anyway ... they wouldn't want to tarnish their branding. Garage Games is the best example I think of an independent publisher ... they won't publish any match 3 or bubble popping games. Everything they've published is pretty different ... or a lot of it is. Some of it isn't ... and by some of it I mean Marble Blast and Think Tanks which also happen to be their most successful games. However, they definitely looked out for good innovative titles like Orbz, Bridge Construction Set, Gish, and even with Aerial Antics etc, etc...

Of course ... the truth is people over the past few years haven't supported innovation too much. However, I think there's going to be a change. It just kind of stinks though that it's going to be Nintendo reaping the big benefits of people getting bored with the same games every year ... and not necessarily the independents.

Of course ... one thing I've got to point out about your match 3 example. A lot of the 'independents' making those games are really just shareware developers. Garage Games is the company that really started pushing the independent label ... and they are still trying to stick to their guns by publishing mostly innovative titles. Those match 3's aren't a good example of what being independent is all about. They are essentially just want the old shareware developer has always been doing.

If it's not a bejeweled clone, it's a "retro remake"... I have emulators for the retro stuff. While I like to see an updated and enhanced version of some old games... I *don't* care to see another remake of something using the same graphics and sound as the original. Innovation is few and far between anywhere you look.

Real innovation is tough ... generally because people are so ignorant. Stephen Cakebread for example created Geometry Wars which is essentially a new age Robotron ... only he had never played Robotron. It's not peoples' fault ... but one person can only have so much perspective on the world. Many people have seen something they like and they just want to expand or change a few things. Everything's innovative really ... just some innovations end up being very different ... and some don't.

Independent developers, as far as I'm concerned, are not defined by the originality of their games. It is only how fun the game is. Who cares if they used an old gameplay or art style? If you have fun playing it, what will it matter?

However, I think that many independent games are not fun. I could point out quite a few, but I'll spare you.

Edit: To elaborate -- if you make a game without having a publisher dictate what you do, you're independent, but it's all worthless if it's not fun. You have to make a fun game, regardless of whether or not it's 100% original. It seems a lot of independent developers get hooked up on this mentality that their games have to be original when they really don't. They have to be fun.

I can only play the same game done by different people a few times before I get sick of it... sure, tetris is fun, and a good tetris is fun, but it is still tetris... Only so many times I can buy tetris before I feel shafted.

I'm all for doing things that are different, or at least have new aspects that drasticly change for the better gameplay. Makeing the game a lot more fun.

Thats innovation...

course.. I really want to make games for a big arse company and do exactly what they want, only, make it good and fun too... thats my goal... course.. it is likely not to be realized.. who cares.. its the journey that matters.

Don't confuse Indie Development with Casual Games, yeah it's true that a lot of Indie Developers go the Casual route since it's quite lucrative and it's easy to knock out a match 3 clone and pay the mortgage for a couple more months.

HOWEVER, people, like yourselves are getting sick to the teeth of match-3 and Zuma clones, the market is full of them and it's getting to melting point. It has actually got to the point now where the majority of the portals are just not interested in Match3 or Zuma type games.

On a more lighter note, my own game GEOM, that I consider to be a unique in the market, was rejected by the majority of main stream portals becuase they were concerned about "It not being a simple match3" WHAT! Well guess what, it's been my stongest seller by far, it still outsells everything else and the conversion rate is something stupid like 30%!! I guess the market has matured a little now and would be more receptive :D

So I suppose my point is.... Go with your heart and not your wallet. Make the game you want to make and you might be surprised how well it does. BUT don't make another match3 zuma puzzloop diner dash lunch rush (can you believe that) clone.

well I can testify that a) it's not that easy to make a professional match 3 clone and b) it doesn't pay the mortgage (not mine anyway) ;-)

My story is that I started making a kung fu platform game and then realised after about 6 months that it was going to take ages to complete plus I needed proper graphics etc. Then I also realised that most of the other online games were NOT arcade-style plaform games but puzzle games. Reading up on the market confirmed that 65% ish of the buyers are ladies over 35 or something.

So I began my match-3 clone to see if I could make a half decent one. I did eventually make Xmas Bonus that did pretty well for an experiment, it sold 222 copies (and counting) but that is not very much money as the portals get most of it. Since then I've made Easter Bonus, which is much more polished. I was aiming to get theis on more portals to boost the sales over 1000 so it was actually worthwhile doing BUT a few portals said no because it a) wasn't polished enough gah! and b) was seasonal; the other portals simply haven't responded, nice!

However, I have learnt a lot from those two games, and thus the next game will be in BlitzMax for more fancy effects and it will be non-seasonal. It WILL be another match-3 clone, possibly my last one though. This is because I HAVE to make money off this one to justify the time to my missus or I'm in for it.

Then having gained skills in making games that the market (and portals) want, I'll turn my attention to other games that the market is into but that are more original. There IS more risk associated with a different type of game though, but the market is becoming match-3 saturated. Problem is there are plenty of non-match-3s and they just don't sell at all really - only a few games really make it big.

Long term I actually just want to be making arcade-style platform games and shoot'em ups etc. Yes they will be clones too, of 8-bit and 16-bit type games. But I'll try to bring them up to date and above all else MAKE THEM FUN.

Oh yeah, worth mentioning that while match-3 might not have been 100% up my street, I DID get into programming them and working out all the nuances; and I believe that I did make them very playable and good fun - unlike some others I've seen.

Another Diner Dash Alert! This time it's wizzards and potions! What ever next? FS or BH?

Grey,

I have to say that I too would love to do a really good platformer or shoot em up (a 'Super Alseste' beater would be good). I guess the problem is that the content for such a game would take a lot longer to generate, and would have to be as good as or better than SNES/Mega Drive style 'AAA' commercial games.

It is a big investment in time [ worthwhile though ], and I reckon a puzzler taking two months to do, would easily become 6-8 months for a decent size shooter or platform game, with a full blown RPG taking 12-18 months.

Still I love a challenge.

IPete2.

Indiepath: Well, I'll just have to finish this current game REALLY quick so we can jump on the bandwagon. Careful now as you might be giving too much away ;-)

IPete2: Yes there is a lot of content needed in terms of graphics, level design, plot, game mechanics for a platformer, even a fairly simple one! I really want to finish Iron Fist, but I need an artist, and tons of time. Plus it should really be converted to Max first. Are you interested in making a platformer then?

Yes, definately! I reckon BMax is 'begging for it'.

IPete2.

@jake, I've already started on the Proof-of-concept for BH :)

It does seem that now a days 'mainstream' and 'indie' are becoming one and the same. We all sigh when we hear about the next amazing FPS using the ultra-moden Unreal engine, and it ends up being the same crap we've seen for years with graphics that look a bit more like real life (ironically, the very thing we are trying to escape by playing video games). But, we also sigh when we hear about the next new Zuma. Take an exciting yet light-hearted south-american culture, add blocks, cubes, or orbs now add obligatorily placed words such as "Quest" to the title and you have the next big casual game. It's a recipe to a dish no one wants.

But I do think some break through. Tribal Trouble, Gish, Deadhunt - these are new ideas to generes we've played a thousand times. But they are innovative, and fun. They aren't the games that capture your mind and let you immerse yourself in their deep storyline; but oddly enough, they are the first things you play when you get home from work.

I think like Alien said, the market is getting saturated. People are really getting annoyed at the mainstream crap that lacks that fun and personality those old games have, but they also feel like the casual games are just superficial and boring. When the gems pop through, they are reconized.

The game I'm working on now, Kingdom Elemental, is exactly in that middle ground. You won't play it for its rich story, or photo-realistic graphics. But it looks good, it plays well, and its fun. And its proof one guy can do it all, and get it fully published, without being a slave to the publisher. I still have full IP, and full control over the end result.

There is hope left, and I think we will see more of it. The two extremes have been hit - the mainstream clones, and the casual clones. Now we get the rare, but satisfying in between that will save it all...

i'm more into it for the money... i'm not smart enough or imaginative enough to do anything innovative in this field...

but i'm sure that by it's very nature, an independent developer, not only in gamemaking, but in any field, has more of a chance, in spite of the fact that they are usual less well funded (or maybe because of that fact) , because of the nature of coprorate thinking... something out there on the fringe... a risky new idea... would very rarely be tolerated by the rulers of the cubicle dwelling corporate community...

ahhhh... just a pre second cup of coffee ramble....

--Mike

> i'm more into it for the money...

and the full stops.

well... of course... isn't that obvious...

--Mike

Is that a rhetorical question? All I see are fullstops.

[quote] Another Diner Dash Alert! This time it's wizzards and potions! What ever next? FS or BH? [quote]

Oh dear. I guess I should delay the release of Whore House Heather for a few months.

lol @ Gabriel. Hope about "Dope Den Dave" lol

Indiepath: cool! I feel kinda left behind now sniff ;-) Did you update the plan recently or are you jsut flying by the seat of your pants?

IPete2: Well my Max GameEngine is nearly ready, maybe I could give you a copy and we could make one. I know Quicksilva wants to make one too. Could be a case of too many coders spoil the game though, or it could be a good thing :-) I can only make one casually or in my spare time alongside this main game however. Or I can test and act as guidance/designer etc. Anyway, do you have enough spare time to start one?

Jake,

Yes I do have the time (until I get that 'big project' I am always after). My BMax experience is what will hold me up though. Avon and I are always threatening to do something, so we have begun looking into BMax and quite like what we find there.

I am sure interested in doing something positive -

IPete2.

BlitzMax is pretty easy, you've got to learn the syntax as always and what it can and can't do. My game framework means you have got everything a professional game should have, and you just get on with the fun bit of making a game. When it's done, you can have a copy if you like, but it's not for distribution as I *might* sell it one day. However, you can use it as you see fit, just don't post the code, thanks :-) So the next phase is thinking up a platform game that is Easy and Fun and getting on with it...

hey GA... a 3D Game ENgine?

hey Enay... was yours (a rhetorical question)... are all or yours (rhetorical questions) :P

--Mike

@Grey, it's just proof of concept, like square blocks and stuff. I just want to make sure the game is actually fun to play before I code for real.

I always start with a proof of concept, it lays the foundations for the game proper. Recognise this one? (http://www.indiepath.com/public/proofofconcept2d.rar)

@Red: nah, haha did you get exceited there for a minute? It's a game "framework", could be 2D OR 3D, depends what you put in it :-)

@Indie: cool. It's certainly a good idea. I'll check out your other one now... lol, yep sure do!

I've finished the 'feasibility study' phase of my 'game' - just testing to see if I can actually achieve what I want, to run fast enough. There's a lot of dynamic vertex/normal manipulation going on, so I was dubious at first. After some brainwaves/optimizations, it's running good now, though. :)

However, I'm now stuck in proof-of-concept hell. I have some good ideas but am struggling to make everything gel. There's a good game in there, somewhere - I just wish I could nail the bugger down. I guess I should have come up with a complete concept, before I started to proof it. :P

@Big10p: What happened to the snake game? And yeah, a complete concept first is always a good idea imho but it's more FUN to just jump in and start straight away :-)

LOL... yeah, you got me GA... but that still sounds pretty interesting...

--Mike

yeah remember Max is just a language that it's pretty easy to make mini-games in, but to get everything in it that a professional game needs is a bit of a hassle, that's what I'm doing now.

I'm talking about my snake game - I decided to go 3D, though. :) Luckily, I've had a short break from it (and the frustration), due to a German mobile/cellphone games company asking me to do a bespoke version of Juicy Fonts for them. Someone actually used my 'donate' button - yay! Anyway, that's all done now.

lush. Now all you need is google ads. I've hit on a cool way to get people to donate yet it costs them nothing, yes they must feign an interest in your google ads, but I must never explicitly encourage this as it's against GoogleAd policy :-)

Indie games have very little to do with innovation, and I see very little of it. What a lot of people see as innovation I see as quirky or gimmicks.

All indie games are about are making games without any obligations to someone else except those who you are developing the game with. You can do whatever you like.

Most games never amount to much because the skills and time to produce the effort required just arent there. Thats the main reason that innovation often doesn't work. A gameplay innovation often ends up being a gameplay gimmick because an idea usualy isn't developed enough to be successful. If thats innovation then there is plenty of it I suppose.

The simple almost nintendo look jeremy mentions often comes about because someone has to draw a line and decide just how much is feasible for a small developer to do, stay consistent throughout their game, and actualy complete it in a timely manner and hopefully reap some rewards for their efforts.

It's unfortunate, but most indie games have to make concessions to real life,just like commercial games, only you have to try and do more with less, and the risks can be greater which is why were always advised to not quite our day job.

There are two extremes that people can go to in this world.

On the one hand you can choose the angle of being unconscious, asleep, living dead, whereby your whole attitude revolves around fear, you believe you and the world are so separate and that there is so much distance between things that all parts are attacking each other to reinforce the separation, that you are a victim of circumstances outside of you, you allow others to constantly define who you are, you react to everything mindlessly, you don't discern or distinguish between anything, morals and ethics are out the window, everything you think and do is full of contradiction and self sabotage, and generally your hate yourself and others.

The alternative extreme is that you realize all of reality springs from a projection of your own mind, you are not a victim of anything happening to you because you do not victimize anyone else, you realize that you and all other people are ONE, you know that what you do to someone else you literally are doing to yourself, you appreciate wholeness and you are filled with love and forgiveness, your mind is free of confusion, you seek to heal and remove separations of all kinds, you are at peace with yourself and others, and above all your freedom to *create* is unleashed as a direct expression of a higher intelligence.

Now, not laying claim to where I or anyone else is on the scale, a lot of people creating games have at least some degree of the former scenario. That being so, the games they create are largely unexamined regurgitations of the past, restatements of previously stated delusions, and generally not well thought-out or inspired creations. Any degree of creativity is usually barely evident, not wanting to step outside of the mass unconsciousness that is prevalent in their experience, and generally full of fear and control. This is especially true of the very easily chosen `dark` games whereby the ego is allowed to run rampant with its fantasy of death and destruction and self torture. These things are boring because they are full of delay and avoidance. They are lifeless because they reflect a distance from being fully alive. They are mindless because they spring from mindless people. They are more of the same because they spring from a more of the same attitude - people not wanting to wake up and be fully conscious.

In some rare cases then you get individuals who are more mature, more awake, more at peace, with a more unified thinking and a more refined higher mind, who can make good business decisions and see the world from a new angle rather than just the same one as everyone else. And it's because they choose to perceive the world in a visionary light, shedding light on all the places where there is darkness and unwise choices, they are able to express themselves to create things far more beautiful and enjoyable and light and fun than anyone else. They also come up with great ideas because they are open to being a medium for the expression of a higher vision than themselves. Their very minds are open to receiving inspiration and divine expression. This is where innovative games come from.

So you can either be a follower or a leader, asleep or awake, unconscious or conscious, taking the easy route or the more difficult path, expressing a higher understanding and mastery or taking off-the-shelf garbage and throwing it into another pile.

That said, sometimes people do not want something that holds too much truth or light because it threatens their ego. Things can be ahead of their time.

Crikey! I only want to make a fun game, not take over the world. :P

Interesting words AngelDaniel. Many may not groove to them. I myself am travelling from the former to the latter, as you put it - but still have a long way to go. At least I *know* I am travelling, so I can see clearly all around me :-)

One thing I would say is, you can still put a lot of creativity into a "clone" game, even if it's not particularly innovative, and just being creative is very good for people - that's one of the main reasons we have all bought Blitz after all - to be creative.

I'll second that! I guess some people have a much greater need to be creative than others, though. Personally, I know I have a great need to be creative - I've had times in my life where, for various reasons, I've not had a creative outlet. Those times were bad times, needless to say.

yeah I also have gone through various phases of playing lots of music and then none (I mean on the guitar or making mods, not just playing CDs) and when I play music I feel so much better, it's just an outlet for negative energy, not that the music has to be negative it just helps you to cleanse and focus imho.

I'm kinda jealous of people with musical ability - I bet it's a fantastic creative outlet. Unfortunately, music is a foreign language to me. I mean creating it is - any idiot can listen to music. :P

This is an impressive Indie game IMHO, developed from scratch by just one indie developer (not really original), but still very impressive for just one person to do by himself.

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=347017

Gang War looks pretty good, but the city streets look deserted. And, of course, it's how well the game plays that counts. :)

There's also something called luck. Watch the movie Match Point ... personally, I think that's all there is to it. You really don't have any control over anything. Just because you realize that we're all ONE (did you see that documentary) doesn't mean that you'll tap into that power. Seriously, control is the biggest illusion of all. Go out ... create whatever you can ... hope you're lucky and people love it. Look at George Lucas with Star Wars ... they thought it would bomb.