Can Europe really do this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4861282.stm

I would have thought, being capitalist, the EU couldn't do that to Microsoft. If they want to distribute Media Player with their OS then why can't they?

What the EU is doing to MS is nothing more than legalizied extortion. MS should stop selling their products in Europe and let the nonexistent supressed competition step in and provide operating systems for home computers in Europe that will run all of the games and applications that home users want and need.

I don't get it either. Apple does the exact same thing and are the only real competition to MS. Most of the players out there are rubbish anyway.

I refuse to use itunes or quicktime, same goes for real player, and it's not because of mediaplayer shipping with windows.

I wonder if the videolan player is one of the whinge bag developers behind the the lawsuit. Somehow I doubt it.

Videolan and media player are the two I use. The other big name ones are far too intrusive and hog my ram with half a dozen background services I can do without

Didn't they already force Microsoft to hide IE within Explorer?
(Which is probably not a very good thing).


What is wrong with bundling software with Windows, anyway?
The fact is, Windows is bundled with a lot more than just Media Player. All those things like card games, System Restore, drive space checkers, Disk Defragmenters, network tools, the Ping command, and InstallShield are bundled with Windows in the exact same way that Media Player is.

If the EU wants to look consistent, they will have to force Microsoft to release the Windows kernel, Windows desktop, Windows login screen, Windows card games, Explorer, and all that other stuff in seperate packages.

I, the consumer, do not want this to happen.


If the stuff that comes bundled with Windows shouldn't be there because it hurts people's business, what about other free software that comes off of the Internet?
(Yes, the Internet can be considered just as much a product as Windows now, thanks to cash-hungry telephone companies.)

Isn't Linux hurting the business of OS people who make oeprating systems?

Is SourceForge.net killing free competition in the software industry?

Only player I like is winamp, media player just sucks in my opinion.

But I do like how Europe is standing up.

Welcome to the loony-tunes world of the EU! Governed by a bunch of overpaid bureaucrats without an ounce (sorry, gram) of common sense between them. Think yourselves lucky - some of us have to live in the EU. :/

So what you're saying is that in a capitalist society, government should only protect corporations against liability, but not be allowed to regulate fair trade agreements?

First of all, Apple don't do the exact same thing, because Apple does not operate a monopoly, and does not employ predatory tactics in order to maintain it.

This EU thing is not a corporate law suit, unlike the ones Microsoft threatened the VideoLan guys with. Microsoft is simply in violation of EU law (much like they are in the US). The difference is that Microsofts friends in the DoJ (I'm talking here specificly of former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, who promptly dropped an ongoing five year antitrust lawsuit investigation against campaign contributor Microsoft within weeks of taking office) do not protect it in the EU. Presumably, EU politicians want their own bribes.

It's called antitrust, and it's illegal in free economies.

You would prefer perhaps being forced to pay whatever Microsoft demands whenever Microsoft demands it?

Linux has all those things you mentioned. You bought Windows to be able to play games.

Again free software does not hurt business. There are way to compete with free software. There are no ways to compete with a predatory monopoly.

How many people do you know who runs Linux as their primary OS? It's certainly not hurting Microsofts business much.

No, things that are free (as in speech not beer) cannot possibly hurt competition, as all competitors have a level playing field. For instance if I where to write a new low-level BSD style socket library, and offer it under an MIT style license, I am not creating a slanted market, as both Microsoft, Apple and whatever Linux distributions care to use it, can. Thus no single company has an unfair competitive advantage over the other.

Shame, I'll have to download mediaplayer now.

I don't see the problems with all this enforced stuff as well.
It creates more problems than it helps:

Windows E Versions: Click on anything media related -> Popup that you need to download WMP.
I don't even take into account that most players you can download from the net that are windows only USE the WMP COM so they will break as well.

Its just a question of time until MS will enforce the same to commercial linux distris (which come with media players as well) and OSX as it stepped into the MS market.

And MS does not have a monopol as well. Don't know which morron in belgie came up with that. Sure they have a large market share, but only on the home user market! And for the home user market, the OS has to be easy to use and featured with everything you need and a media player is definitely a thing you need.
If they care about monopolism, they shall go after IBM for PPC monopolism (which they really missused as we saw with Apples switch to Intel), Linux for server OS monopolism etc.

FD: Your comparisons are quite wrong. What the heck has price to do with OS features? If you followed online news then you saw that MS is even forced to not incorperate and anti virus solution into vista because of assholes. Great, open to viruses because of little @#!*heads that think that an OS creator has no right to protect its users from virus. If they don't like it -> no problem, there are other OS they can switch to if they don't like to use windows. They aren't forced to.

On the "how many do you know": You will laugh but at universities, Linux is the primary OS with a few exceptions and those exceptions are normally 3D related things.
And funny, for servers, Linux is primary as well and that nearly everywhere ...

Can't remember anyone going to court because of Linux monopoly on supercomputers ...

Don't they do it with iPod? If you buy an iPod you'd get the software with iTunes on it. By doing that they're encouraging people to buy their music through them. I know it's not really on the same scale but still.

Btw: The EU is not known to be for fair trade, just to mention that. Their actual planning: They want to enforce mobile communication prices within EU countries have to be the same as within the own country. No roaming prices anymore.
Thats definitely heavily impacting what is known as free market. They are trying to regulate everything ...

My good point: Although I life in the middle of europe, I don't life within EU :D

well roaming taxes are really a rip off. With the new system you'll pay the local prices. This will make things much cheaper. Not sure if I like it since it will create more E-smog, however, it's gonna make distant calls over your mobile much cheaper.

The Media Player Windows thing is not about to force Microsoft to remove the Mediaplayer, but to offer an alternative version of the OS that runs without Mediaplayer. That's a good thing if for example you have to pay special radio and TV taxes IF your computer can play media streams.

Additionaly : we have seen what happened with MSIE 4 that became an integral part of the system and was not uninstallable. This way all securities vulnerabilities of MSIE have been part of the OS releases, intentional or not.

But of course, don't think I'm an EU fan, not at all.

Yes they do. Not in the Adam Smith sense of the word, but they do hold a defacto monopoly in the Desktop OS market.

Except PPC is not a monopoly. For starters it's a processor and is in stiff competition with Intel and AMD (otherwise Apple wouldn't be ABLE to switch). Secondly PPC is a joint venture, so by definition can't be a monopoly.

First of all, Linux is far from the main (or even dominating server OS) Microsoft Windows Servers and SUN Solaris Servers also have a significant market share. Also while it's true that Linux and BSD are good choices for a Server, there is not a single company that completely controls Linux and/or BSD (even RedHat). Thus even a central player like RedHat gains no significant competitive advange over it's competitiors by providing its particular flavour of Linux solutions.

Nothing. Price has something to do with operating a monopoly. When you have a monopoly, and use illegal business practices to maintain it, you can effectively ask whichever price you want, regardless of feature set.

No it's open to viruses because it was poorly design, and Microsoft have no incentive (like say competition) to improve it's security flaws. Anti-virus software is a reactive measure, not a proactive one.

That's because most universities can no longer afford Microsofts bulk licensing packages, where as Linux and BSD solutions are inexpensive and are suitable for research and engineering experiemnts (because of the readilly available ammounts of source code).

I know the place I go to are starting to feel the sting of having to pay for 1500 end user licenses nobody ever uses.

Because it doesn't have one. 'Supercomputers' will usually be running something like SGI IRIX (a Unix variant), AS400 (for mainframes), Solaris (for anything Java based and scalable), Windows (for terminal and web services), Redhat (Linux), FreeBSD or MacOSX Server.

But they don't have a de-facto monopoly. Creative, Sony and iriver all have competeing products, and while Apple probably do have the lions share of the market, it is far from the stranglehold Microsoft has on the Desktop OS market.

Neither am I. But doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing.

I don't think MS should be kicked in the nut's for being successful. And ultimately that is what its all about. Still it looks like Apple's OS runs on AMD and Intel systems.

Only With Apple you have the hidden costs of upgrades where you pay $130 anualy for a .x OS revision. Where with MS you have a higher initial cost that lasts you 4-5 years in some cases more.

I'd rather the EU spent more time sorting its own problems out than trying to feel important and sneak federalism through the back door. Hopefully more countried that hold referendums have their votes counted, rather than the debacle that was the last time, and the EU goes back to being run for the reasons it was initialy intended.

I am with Evak on this. Except more extreme.

How would any of us like to spend several decades making a successful company and fulfilling our visions of what desktop computer OSes should look like and then have some boneheaded Socialist crap heads tell you that you have been too successful and anything you do will be pooped on or di-allowed until you pay up?

This is total BS. Whether you like MS products or not is irrelevant. MS won the battle for the PC desktop. It was a fair fight and MS won. MS did everything in their power to descimate or assimilate the competition which is exactly what I would do if I wanted to win.

Problem is most Socialist countries are so defeatist and apologist that they resent other's success and can't stand it when someone or something is obviously better than them or theirs.

I truly feel sorry for Europeans who find themselves under the yolk of Socialism. I especially feel sorry for the taxes the pay their governments for the priviledge of being under the yolk. Read "yolk" to mean the EEC.

Lawyers, liberals and bureaucrats need a serious smack in the head. Common sense righteousness must prevail.

The world needs a good apocalypse and soon.

IMO

What about the Yakuza or Al Qeida? Should they be punished for being successful? Microsoft are not being punished for their success. They are being punished because they are breaking the law.

No it wasn't. If that where they case, why did they lose / settle out of court every lawsuit brought against them by (in cronological order) Apple, IBM, Netscape, Novell and SUN Microsystems. (The list is probably not exhaustive, but only covers high-profile cases). Additionally they where investigated twice by the FTC and JOD respectively.

You, Bill Gates, Al Capone, Osama Bin Laden and Iosif Stalin. Nice club you have there.

The EU is not a socialist country (it's not even A country). In fact with the exception of Spain, I don't even know if there are any Socialist countries in the EU.

I rest my case, your honour.

I don't usually do this but ...

FlameDuck=Socialist,Apologist,Liberal and any other leftwing acronym. To compare Bill Gate to Stalin, or Bin LAden is assinine. You sir, are an idiot who has obviously been brianwashed by whatever liberal fascist pap they feed you whereever it is a piece of no-nothing dung like you resides. I feel sorry for your parents, unless they are hippies and then I hope they have afront row seat to said apocalypse.

I have had the conviction of belief to put myself in harms way to defend people like you and their right to believe whatever horsecrap they want to. I do not, however, have to agree with it.

Your stupid opinions label you as a turd in great toilet bowl we call earth.

BTW if you call France anything but Socialist your an uneducated boob.

Try not to clog the drain on your way down loser.

<USA>
Heh, sucks to be you guys.
</USA>

Noel: The problem that I have with this, and the reason why I care at all, is that the EU whining at MS about these things could easily affect us by Microsoft then merging Windows Media Player (which is a rather bad looking program likely full of gaping security holes, which also happens to have web features) into Windows Explorer.


Also because they're better when you have an advanced user :P

Most universities should easily be able to afford MS's licensing packages. There are public schools in my area running entirely on Windows XP.
Sure, they only have a couple hundred computers at most, but these are schools funded in bulk by the government whereas "most" universities are funded by extremely big tuition fees and other even more significant sponsors / government sources.

Thanks Noel. (I think ..)

I am sick to death of elitist morons who know absolutely @#!* all about what they are talking about.

I am an American Naval veteran and proudly so. Bill Gates is an American business man and damn good one.

It seems being American is not so popular. Well I say if you don't like us a.) give us back any and all money we loaned after WW1 and WW2 helping to rebuild Europe and then we'll talk.

Flameduck needs to spend some time telling his Grand Dad what his view of the world is and maybe his Grand Dad will set him straight since he doesn't have a clue what socialism is.

Some folks just don't like being beat. Sadly, except for the UK most of the countries in Europe have been occupied or handed their asses handed to them at one time or another and thus have little if any allegance to anything other than their state sponsored soccer franchises.

I will never, ever capitulate to stupidity. I will debate my world view with anyone, anytime with the facts. So if this really needs to get ugly I will unleash some very nasty historical facts which of course will do nothing for those individuals of small, closed minds but may bolster others who are like minded in their convictions.

Later,

Does this mean that Iraq owes the USA money? Wait... no... I think I know why, too.
Europe took quite a beating, and it's probably thanks to Europe being a key figure in the war that North America didn't come next.
Anyway... *Cough*Softwood Lumber*cough*
Don't listen to them :P

I agree, it's unfair to pound MS continually simply for being the most successful company. They definietly have acquired a lot of their competition, which is a very questionable business practice, but many of the things that they get brought to court for have nothing to do with that. They're just attempts to make a quick buck.

I do not disagree with the notion that Microsoft should be disallowed from aquiring all of its competition with money as opposed to superior products, or that they should be blasted for their inability to follow the same software standards as everyone else. (Software standards seems to be something that Microsoft simply does not like).

So? Isn't that the point of Democracy? I got shot by a Croatian Ustaše Sniper in Sarajevo while doing my duty, how about you? Wanna compare scars?

They are probably running off OEM licenses rather than bulk agreements. Most universities in my country expect the students to buy their own software. Needless to say, when forced to chose between spending your 1000 USD a month student benefits on Operating Systems or 'food'/'clothes'/'shelter', most will chose the later.

I never said he wasn't. I said he was a criminal. Despite want Foxs News might tell you, the two are not mutually exclusive.

That's interesting, because:
Historical fact: From the roman times, and about up until about the renaissance, England was at any given time occupied by pretty much every other European Nation there was. You could say it was percieved as a sport.

What does being American have to do with it? Don't blame America for your ignorance.

I can't. He was killed in Bergen-Belsen by someone who shared your particular views on socialists, liberals and intellectuals.

Well that'd be a nice change from rampant nationalism, name calling, and baseless accusations. Oh and by the way, you can't surrender to something you already embrace.

I picked tacos. I spent the entire ~$1000 on tacos. They was tasties.

Ach, mein gott in himmel, das ist nein gut!

Really, I like Win XP just the way it is now, why change it? I mean, I like the choice, too, but there should be freedom to choose what you want to play your media and surf your internet on. If Bill Gates wants to bundle Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player, then so be it. He has every right to make sure you have the right software for the job. Not everyone has the know how to install or uninstall necessary software for efficient computing. For those that do, you can override the defaults, and install and use as you wish after the fact. Who says that MS is doing something wrong, it's the user's responsibility to grab the software they need from their competition, if they feel MS is too much on their OS.

You know this. There are better ways to "debate my world view with anyone", surely - even if it the best you can manage is to post nothing at all.

The law. Antitrust laws to be exact. And before more people start pinning this one on socialist agenda, the antitrust laws are outlined in The Sherman Act penned by Republican Senator John Sherman and enacted in 1890, and enfored mostly by Republican Presidents, so it's a pretty far stretch from socialism.

But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your righteous crusade.

when I was a student I got both windows 95 and NT4 for 50 quid. What annoyed me was that 3dsmax was $1000 to american students complete with character studio whilst I would have had to pay $5000 to purchase my own copy.

The university could buy multiple licences with an educational discount 10 for 1000 pounds, but there was no way for me to get a copy licenced to me at anything less than full retail.

MS products,by contrast, were never expensive if you were a student, of course back then I didn't have to pay fees and could get a grant instead of being forced to have a loan. But the loans were government policy; not MS' doing.

I am not a lawyer and it is entirely possible that MS has broken an EU law, regulation, or ofended European sensibilities in some fashion. In fact, I am certain of it. I am also certain that FlameDuck has violated any number of EU laws and regulations. The reason I am so certain of that is that NO ONE knows what all the EU laws and regulations are. All we do know is that there are a heck of a lot of them, in many different languages, and that no two versions of said laws and regulations are exactly the same. (lawyers love them)

And while I suppose it is true that Usama, like FlameDuck, has violated EU laws and regulations I respectfully submit that there MAY be some reasons for the EU authorities to take Usama more seriously than FlameDuck. I admit, however, that I have not entirely made up my mind about this matter. Advice would be appreciated.

BTW the UK paid off its lend lease debt to the US last year :)

And there you have it.

Really, it's time to start a page of forum quotes...
Anyone up to a bit of quick PHP?

Sorry,

Can't respond for long, must watch O'rielly factor on Fox :)

Flameduck, it was a pleasure. Sorry you were shot. I won't presume to know how much that must have sucked. While I don't share your opinion or world view and it is quite apparent we disagree on several levels I will say this, at least you stand up for something which is more than most sheople are willing to do. You say you were shot by a Croatian sniper which I guess means you are Serbian. If this is the case then you have my utmost respect for standing up for what you believe. That conflict is old and nasty and not likely over.

My point of view may seem ignorant to you. I am a humble student, my point of view has been formed by exhaustive travel, personal experience and life analysis. I am the sum of my experiences and I view the world through pragmatic, cynical eyes.

Our differences and ideology may be different and irreconcilable and, indeed, I may be "embracing stupity" but I can tell the difference between true, evil villainy and capitalist gluttony and I don't consider them the same at all. People lose their liberty and their lives under the tyrrany of evil, they only lose their money under capitalist gluttony. Subtle difference there.

Allan

BTW did anyone notice that MS actually has bent over backwards for the EU in its next Operating System that comes in 8 versions as per EU's mandate the most basic version has no media player and is only really usful as a basic office machine.

A huge opperating cost to microsoft, of course everyone ignores this, and its unfortunate that Windows vista has been put back several months into next year. It was supposed to be released this summer and would have made the current problems discussed disappear.

EU regulations don't apply to individuals, the EU is not a federal government, and considering the diverse populations in Europe at this time (and their opinions on foreigners, and turkey in particular), its not likely to become one in our lifetimes.

I can't really say, I was on morphine most of the time, so it seems a bit unreal. It left a cool scar tho'.

Actually I'm Danish. I was serving in the Danish Marine Regiment in Croatia as part of UNPROFOR.

Well I consider personal economic freedom one of the greatest liberties we have, and do not believe in true universal evil. So I guess that's where our differences stem from.

That's one interprentation. I believe Microsofts reasoning was that the less feature rich versions would give them greater market penetration, and help curb piracy in non-western countries.

Please It costs Microsoft @#!* all. They already have as many different versions of XP (Home, Professional, x64, TabletPC, Media Center Edition and 2003 Server) as they do the new Vista, the only thing that's changed is more consistent branding.

It was pushed back becuase of security concerns with the non-business versions. Want it 'early' buy it through a company.

The big difference is that microsoft has been ruled to be an monopolist, both by the US supreme court & the European courts. When you have a monopoly, you're bound by some additional rules & regulations that non-monopolists aren't.

It's illegal to (ab)use a monopoly in one area (desktop operating systems) to extend into another area. If you have 90%+ of the desktop market and bundle unrelated items with your product, you essentially abuse this 90% market share to push others out of their market segment. In microsoft's case, the 'media player' market. On the horizon are other cases regarding antivirus, spyware, etc. which are deemed not to be part of an operating system but add-ons.

So yes, it does mean that microsoft has to follow certain rules that Apple doesn't, simply because they have such a huge market share. But should Apple all of a sudden get a huge boost in size and microsoft's market share drops a couple of dozen percent, at that point Microsoft can bundle pretty much anything they feel like.

But as long as they are a monopoly, they can't.

While this is being spun as a 'EU vs. US' in some of the US media, that's not really the case. The companies that have to gain the most over these rulings are Apple (Quicktime) and Real Networks (RealVideo), both US companies as well.

Now, it will be very interesting to see how the EU demands for opening up additional windows API's and Fileformats are going to pan out... so far microsoft has made an half-assed attempt to 'let people see the actual source for windows (tm)' claiming to go above and beyond the requirements, but that has been deemed irrelevant so far -- actual API's and format descriptions are a world of difference over a can of spaghetticode that you have to sign over your first born for to be allowed to view.

finally "can Europe really do this?" -- they can do whatever they want. This is not a dispute between companies, this is a dispute between a corporation and souvereign nations. Governments make laws, governments enforce laws, and corporations have to follow the laws if they choose to do business in said countries. If microsoft doesn't like it, they could choose to not do business in Europe. That's not going to happen considering that the EU has one and a half times the population of the US, is just as industrialized/dependend on computers as the US, and is a huge market for Microsoft. If they want to continue to do business, they have to follow the laws.

Microsoft chose not to do so - more than likely, knowingly. Now they have to abide the consequences of that decision.

What's so hard to understand about that?

My opinion on EU against MS
1. MicroSoft operates as a monopolyst;
2. Some 'features' of the OS can not be uninstalled (or it is not so simple for the final user...);
3. If you have the full OS installed with MediaPlayer you don't need to download ANY other player as WinAmp (it is free...MediaPlayer not - you paid it when you bought the OS)
4. If the OS is 'complete' for the user is a 'good' idea - no need for download anything...but for the other company (such Winamp...) it is a damage...

EU is against Microsoft not for protect the final user but to protect the other software houses...it quite obviuos..

Just my opinion...

Yes I can see your point, seeing as many EU countries have far better living standards on average than the US, terrible way to live isn’t it?

Yes I quite agree, then some company would create an almost certainly superior OS and be able to attain a decent market position within being squeezed out of the market before they've begun by M$ or bought up by them. I'm sure once established in Europe the OS would be marketed as an alternative in Asia and do very well. If you think about it M$ pulling out of Europe would be very, very good for PC users.

Erm, did history lessons go out of fashion in schools? First when you say England I hope you’re responding to somebody else’s claim that the UK was never invaded by talking about part of what is now the UK rather than thinking that the UK and England are two names for one entity. Secondly after the Roman Empire broke up England was invaded a few times but to say “England was at any given time occupied by pretty much every other European Nation there was” is perhaps bending the truth a little shall we say?

No they don't. On average the US citizen has a much higher living standard than most european countries. It's just that the european average is closer to the mean, than the US value.

Well you'll probably still need something to play RealMedia and QuickTime. Oh and something that does aspect ratio correct playback, like VideoLan.

When I say England, I mean England, as the UK did not exist in Roman times. I'm sorry if I offended anyone in those UK regions whose only enemy was the English.

Norway, Iceland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Switzerland, Ireland, Belgium are European countries with higher standings in the Human Development Index. I'm sure many other European countries would surpass the US if GDP were not taken into consideration since the GDP is kinda irrelevant anyway.

England didn’t exist in Roman times either, or for a number of centuries after for that matter.

By the way I like how you ignored the main brunt about what I was saying, the point that your self proclaimed FACTS were wrong, you know where you said;

Slightly more balanced Historical Fact:

Up until 1066, and the Norman invasion under William the conquerer, what is now known as the UK was a diverse collection of Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and Celtic (i.e Britonian Welsh, Scots and Irish). It was not being Invaded, there was no country, religion or unified culture to invade. It was being settled, and the immigrants were fighting of thier slice of the pie.

The English or "England" really didn´t exist until after the Normans had brought this geographical area under their control and established feudalism. From that point onwards the only notable invasion of England was by William Wallace. Wallace did not end williams bloodline.

The real "sport" didn´t start until the English modified the Welsh longbow :P

European politics is full of s%&t heads, full stop!

Dabz

Good lad, well said

EDIT: I was actually referring to the post by Pl@nt@genet

and US politics is full of war mongering liars.

We get the violent ones, you get the masochistic ones.

You should try telling that to the EU. They are currently going after Apple for Itunes and the monopoly it holds.