If Blitz3D major upates cost extra $100.....

Hi all,

If Blitz3D major updates cost you extra $100, will you pay for it?
Major updates include DXTC, D8/9 features, etc.
But Still for pc only.
(I hope Mr. Mark and all Blitz3D users could consider this seriously...)

Thanks
Sammy
:)

No.

I really don't know where to begin explaining why. What DX8/9 features are worth paying another $100 for, anyway?

No.

BlitzMax is where it's at, anyway.

This is like to 400th thread about the same thing. :/

No, because when I bought the product it was explicitly stated that all updates would be free.

Besides, hasn't the DX7Test dll already proven that we can apply DXTC ourselves?

Face it: Blitz3d is old.
Is the Quake 2 engine going to reappear with DirectX 10 and pixelshaders all over the place?
NO.


I would definietly not pay for an update to B3d that costs as much as the language itself. I would rather be paying for Blitz3d 2, because then I could be sure that it would work without any bugs from such a massive transition as is being blindly proposed.

DX9 support isnt' just getting it to render with DX9, anyway!
They also have to add all the new features of DX9 into Blitz3d's functions, and that takes a lot of time.

No, I like my engine. Some folks would probably buy it, but it's not likely to be a worthwhile investment for BRL or developers who are already working within the limitations of Blitz3D.

Don't forget that a lot of people probably bought Blitz3D when Mark said on these very forums that Blitz3D will go DX9.

I certainly wouldn't pay $100 for it.

No. DXTC would be handy, but apart from that... meh.

I'd have to say no as well... because of some of the reasons stated and because there's other tools for that. B3D does what it does and I'm happy it does it as well as it does. But if I want to move beyond what it does, I'll use something else.

This again? sheesh.
Didn't we have this thread last week/month?

time to move on, bmax is it, it kicks ass, go buy it.. :)

I'd probably pay $100 for a High-Def version of Blitz (If BlitzHD is ever made). Since most people are going widescreen, might as well get some games made that follow suit, and probably have it that you can design games that rival that of the X360 in quality.

How would you define a 'High-Def' version?

You can already use high resolution widescreen modes, if your video cards supports it.

A year and a half ago, this was a new/hot topic. And at that time, it went through pretty positivly (not for 100 bucks mind you).

Now, its a futile debate as no one wants to deter Mark from doing the BlitzMax 3D Module (As it is what most are waiting for).

Personally, There are a few features I would like to see in Blitz3D, however they aren't stopping me completely (messy work arounds, but they are still doable).

Actually its the 432nd thread about this, but who's counting :cp

No.

Well you're in luck then, because it only costs 80!

Graphics 1920,1200,32 works like a charm here. You want to rival the XBox 360, get a good artist team. Any questions?

No! I have bought B3D twice and I have never used it other than playing with it and trying examples & demos that others post. But my interest is only in 2D ;c)

None, especially when you consider DX8/9 features are outdated and that unlike previous versions, DX10 will not be backwards compatible.

People are finally starting to turn out stuff in B3D that rivals the quality of major commercial releases. We are just starting to see people push B3D to its true potential.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/bigrigsotrr/index.html
That's been happening for a long time.

DX10 is backwards compatible, it's just not using the old DirectXs to do it.

I'm trying to get into the 3D aspect myself. Having being trained in NES/Atari-style game development for the longest time, it's time for a change in style for me, and get into the games that really matter... Don't want to make too many complex games, tho... Got an X360 controller that I'm designing most if not all my games around, so better support for the 360, Revolution, or PS3 controllers, as well as porting games into a Net Yaroze-type system would probably be beneificial (if Blitz ever does anything that converts Blitz code into game console code).

No its not, it uses a software layer to translate all the old api calls to the new api calls. There will be a performance hit.

That is what is known as 'backwards compatability,' Kuron.

..I said nuke this thread...where is Muk to clean up this mess ? :))

*cough* emulation *cough*, lol

Doesn't matter if it's emulated as long as the old API calls still work. In Direct3D 10's case, they do. As such, it is backwards compatible with older versions of Direct3D.

And for all you calling it DirectX 10, it's not. It's Direct3D 10.

Yeah, that will take some getting used to calling it that :c/

It is a good thing that they changed the name, though.
I was having nightmares about that terrible DirectX logo which everyone was using a while ago that looks something like this or this (straight from Microsoft, that one is), but with an extra X, like this cackling at me in that horrible way that ugly logos always do.

Eww... DirectX X. Judging by Microsoft's obvious obsession with the letter X, it was bound to happen unless they changed the name to something less stupid :P

1. No
2. Still no.
3. Last week it was the same thread, and it was still no then.
4. Welcome back Gfk.

Thanks you for your feedbacks.

From above, I know more what you are thinking.
In fact, I also think it is not worth paying for single platform.

Thanks
Sammy
:)

I thought the DXTV dll only loaded compressed textures as regular bitmaps without actual hardware compression. Thats what someone told me anyway.

To be honest the best graphics renderer is still only as good as it's art pipeline. Without which you might as well stick with what you have got.

Ogre has a great script based material system that someone actually made max plugins for with full support for multipass materials, LOD materials, and techniques for hardware compatibility. Not only that but it renders wysiwyg in your max viewports, shaders, 3 types of realtime shadows and all.

It also exports LOD, tangent vectors and builds edge lists for the shadows too. Really nice when artists have control of dynamic lights and shadow casting and recieving from within their level building tools.

It will take a long time before Max3D gets anywhere near as good support, months if not years.

This is the kind of thing your up against when competing with commercial game engines that often do have these tools built over time. Indies typicaly get the short end of the straw. but it is getting better :)

I'd probably buy it.

Even if it doesn't include a Bacon() function?

> This is like to 400th thread about the same thing. :/

Well I suppose it makes a change from the BMax3D whining :)

I wouldnt pay for it.

$100?

It's pretty cheap, only a very very small part of monthly salary, so whay not buy it if there's a new version of Blitz?

But I'd rather wait for Max3D, I'm busy making 2D ones, who know when ti'll get done?

I'd much rather pay $100 to Microsoft (like Mr. Gates needs more $$$ like a hole in the head, anyway) if they come out with a whole new Visual Studio package next week that promised to be more stable than VS 2005 is, yet, still be able to create programs for the upcoming Vista.

A new update to Blitz3D would take precious time off Max3D development.

if that isn't done soon, it'll be out of date before it's complete and BRL will see major issues- For one, I got Max with the knowledge of the 3D engine coming out soon. Several projects were put on hold to wait for it (Needed a break anyway). A year later it's still not done, people are complaining about it AND B3D.

B3D is the older product. I'm sorry to say it but it is a good thing Mark et al are working on Max3D instead.

I'm liking the Idea of Ogre + C# myself. It feels like max, yet I don't need to wrap Ogre. (well, only cuz someone else did..... but anyway!) There's lots more for me to learn with it though, where I pretty much picked up max and was able to work.

Apparently C# and Managed DX is quite a nice little partnership. Haven't tried yet, thats way ahead of my level right now! try that instead of moaning about DX9 in B3D :)

Because there isn't going to be one to buy. And I doubt $100 is a very very small part of everyone's salary, considering many on this site are students or live in countries where the exchange rate is unfavourable.

@Kuron,

Nope, Vista will have both DX9 and DX10 drivers installed, read MS's Press release on Gamespot.

Means your game can run either as DX10 Native, DX10 emulation or DX9 Native... all on the same box.

I think it's a great move, and from what i've read, i'm really looking forward to DX 10 titles.

Would not even pay 100$ for Max3D. There is OGRE for free, so why the hell should I pay the heck for it? Mark would better use OGRE for the graphics part. Would give him much time to do Sound and Physics stuff instead of reinventing the wheel a 10th million time.

On the C# + OGRE: Axiom sadly isn't on 1.2, not even on 1.1 ... otherwise I would perhaps get my hands on it as well.

You should charge $100. People will complain even if it's free.

I think an official Bmax Ogre module would be good too. Does just about everything you could want on the rendering front and has good support for most art pipelines. It also works in a blitz friendly node/entity kind of way.

I'd pay $100 for a decent cross platform Bmax Ogre module rather than an updated B3D.

Wouldn't even matter if they even made DB Pro-based games compatible with Blitz 3D, it still can't be worth $100 to make that happen (if that were the case I'd probably have both DB Pro AND Blitz 3D, which I do).

Dreamora;

I believe Ogre would be the perfect match for Max.

As for Ogre and C#- Check out OgreDotNet- They recon they've nearly finished updating it to the latest Ogre.

Uhh, right, just like their XBox and X360 (I suppose that's how the name "XBox" was born). It uses MS's DirectX technology in their console, and some technology that's five years old already (the original XBox). As for the X360, it still uses DirectX, but they use the technology that Apple dumped last year. As far as I'm concerned, BlitzMax would be the only version of Blitz that even has a chance to design XBox games. Just combine that with that SDK from SourceForge, then you got something.

Of course, if Blitz 3D actually had an upgrade to allow you to port to a game console, would you think it would be worth the $100 if they allowed you to port a game into a Pocket PC or XBox, or other platforms?

I saw theres a pocket PC and unoficial port to old Xbox versions of ogre too.

I think an official Bmax Ogre module would be good too. Does just about everything you could want on the rendering front and has good support for most art pipelines. It also works in a blitz friendly node/entity kind of way.

I'd pay $100 for a decent cross platform Bmax Ogre module rather than an updated B3D.

I agree with Evak, and would put my money down on it.

heh, i wonder when Blitz3D 2 will come out. Is there actualy any news already on some new Blitz3D thigy?

Umm...this is a year old thread...Doubt there's too much news about B3D2, although I doubt there will ever be one though. Just use max with an engine.

There likely won't be another Blitz3D, given how easy it is to add new components to BlitzMax in the form of modules. Your best bet is to wait and see what Max3D is like when it's released.

Wow. There's a name.

Welcome back?

Thanks?

*Goes back to work*

ah, okey. i gues MiniB3D is they way to go then?
Is it seriously already better then B3D? if so, why do they still sell it?

Because as old as it is, it still can be used to create great stuff, and is a perfect platform for any beginners in 3D who dont want to use OOP, engines with wrappers, pointers etc etc.

Its a good example of 'pick up and play' in the world of programming! ;)

Dabz

No. It is better at certain things, and worse at others. Like every other 3D engine on this earth.

I can pay $100 and more if B3D team will fix all system bugs- when user lock station, when Vista changes desktop resolution, ability to fast change fullscreen mode to windowed and back without reloading all resources, add functions that called when game loses/recieves focus, closes(eg. B3D_AppPaused, B3D_AppRestored, B3D_AppTerminated).
Some of those features already implemented by various hacks, dlls etc... but all of them can't be fixed without having B3D sources.

A year of so ago I would have paid $50 for a major update. But since we got 3D in bmax now, I doubt I'd ever want to go back to Blitz3D again. It's really starting to show its age and limitations these days.

No. I don't have enough money. :P

Woah, it's like dawn of the dead!
This thread and Noel Cower returning from nowhere. Weird.

I doubt immensely that Mark would charge $100 for a major upgrade to B3D's renderer since he has already told us himself that the code is not nice to work with, and since for $20 less you can get a whole new, cross-platform language! (For which there happens to be a number of modern free 3D graphics engines).

Edit:
Oops, I already wrote this a year ago...

Well, if there were new versions of Blitz products geared towards Vista, then I'd take action on getting into building programs on this new version of Windows. However, if they don't create something that'll work more than stable on here, well, then there's another thing coming.

Ahem...

(King James, Leviticus 26:1)

Need I remind you all of your unholy worship of Mark Sibly? Bow down to your Lord God and repent your sins, for God makes note of them and His judgment shall be final!

...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

Dreamora, Ogre is on v1.4 now. Thats 3 major revisions in the time I have been waiting for Max3D. There's also Mogre as well as ogredotnet, which basicly means managed ogre (lets you use a plethora of net languages.

The real problem I see with .net is cross platform really isn't all that great.

BTW if BRL did want to integrate ogre somehow there's now a new OUL (Ogre Unrestricted Licence).

http://www.ogre3d.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=418&Itemid=156

..by the way whats going on with FLOW Evak?? Are you guys going to release it as a really features rich and functional addition for BMAX and if so when, roughly??

To be safe, I'm going to say, "when it's ready" but we are hoping for around 3 months.

We do not want to get into an argument remeniscent of Mark with Max3D; "When's Max3D out? you said <n> Date! Why isn't it here?" haha.

It will be very feature rich, and very functional. Initially it will be as close to using Ogre in C++ as possible- so those who have used it before shouldn't have much trouble using it in Max. So far there's Ogre for rendering, Cegui for GUI, and have started on Ogrenewt for physics. We also have Ofusion scene loading in so users of 3DS Max can use the Ofusion plugin to create their scenes. For those without Ofusion there's likely to be a scene editor.

Later on there is a planned "EasyFlow" release, which brings Blitz3D type functionality to the system.

Things are being done properly this time, and every feature gets planned well in advance before coding begins.

We are already using it in some contracted work to great effect.

..how much you guys going to charge for Flow?? I'm interested in to it as well as Bmax as a 3D tool...and only reason why I didnt get over Bmax so far is becouse there is no complete 3D solution for it..as I can see, Flow should be quite complete product with nicely established pipeline(3DSMAX for me), and I'm really looking forward to it..

Yet another 3d engine wrapper - just what BlitzMax needs! Sorry for the sarcasm - I'm sure that you've put a lot of time and effort into it - but really, what's the point? I mean, new 3d module seem to be announced every week. How many incomplete 3d solutions do we really need?

Why not work on improving/extending Minib3d instead?

Because it's not what we need.



I agree- but it will be nice to have at least one complete one, don't you think?

MiniB3D is cool and all, but we're doing things with Flow that MiniB3D can't handle, and things that would take a *long* time to get MiniB3D to support. Scene managers, Static meshes, things like that. Ogre is also way faster than MiniB3D.

I appreciate your thoughts though a bit pessimistic- The system started off for us, but we developed it so that it could be usable by many others. Whats wrong with that? :)

The decision 8 months ago wasn't "lets make an ogre wrapper for the community," it was "We need a decent engine for our future products. Nothing exists that can do what we want yet, lets create it. Oh, wow, this looks like it could be of use to others!"

We have contract work. We can't sit around waiting for someone else to do the work. Ogre gives us more power than anything else available to us right now.

One of the points here is this isn't going to be an incomplete solution. It's not an Antony's Aurora, it's not a SOW, Not just "alot of work" has gone into it, an unbelievable amount of planning by our C-side coder Lina, has gone into preserving ogres infrastructure, and every possible ogre method usable is being made available in blitzmax. This isn't always easy at all with the way Max handles OOP!

Perhaps you will change your mind once you see it in action, I don't know, but you should really look at the good points behind these things. :) Pessimisim can lead to depression you know. :P

One more thing: Would you rather be one of the people complaining that lack of 3D is causing them huge problems, or one of those that gets it done regardless?



We can't say much on the price yet. I doubt it will be a major sting though. ;)

Fair enough. :)

I guess I'm pretty cynical when it comes to 3d modules for BMAX - especially when they are wrappers of other engines, there's just so much that can go wrong because you are relying on the commitment of so many people - but good luck with it.

By the way, are you absolutely sure Antony has nothing to do with this, because I can't help feeling suspicious whenever he is mentioned in relation to commercial 3d engines, especially when the person mentioning him is one of his past collaborators (not in a "rip-off as many people as possibe" way, but in a "game development" way.)

Yup, I'm not only cynical and pessimistic, I'm paranoid too!

Ahh well, yes, keeping up to date with the engine itself is a bit of work, but its worth it if you ask me! :D [edit] You edited your post :P



Haha! *Absolutely* sure. The team consists of Myself, Evak, and the C-side coder is a cool lass named Lina.

As you say, Myself and Evak have worked with Antony in the past, and as a result lost about 6 months of work and considerable cash in that timeframe too. We were both totally against what he did with Aurora. We will not be making that mistake again.



Given the circumstances, I can understand that! Rest assured though, we are not affiliated in any way with Antony. You can feel safe.

*sigh* Boy do I feel like I shot the team in the foot for even mentioning his name! :))

Whots "Flow" except from its defenition, that i know (duh). Is it a new language? :D

The only way to increase your success rate is to triple your failure rate.

Because it's not a collaborative effort?

The only way to increase your success percentage is to decrease your failure one

Most of them seem pretty complete to me. I mean there's TrueVision, 3Impact, and Irrlicht. Those are all fully complete, as of the latest versions of the engines they interface with. Then there's Dreamotion and MiniB3D, which aren't wrappers at all, so you can't really judge complete or incomplete, but they both seem to offer enough to make a game, even if they might be expanded later. Offhand, I can't really think of any which are incomplete, apart from Flow, which isn't actually released, which would make it more Work in Progress than incomplete.

You're entitled to your opinion, but Thomas J. Watson (the founder of IBM) and I respectfully disagree.

:O Y A W N This old china... :P

im getting more into max now, it would be nice to see but i dont think its ever gonna happen.
Im moving out of the house with leaky windows and bad vistas anyway, I just visit at weekends :)

Even Eliza was enough to write a game with.
Its not really a question of if, or if there isnt an alternative 3d engine, (Ive gone for Irrlicht, Hi GMan). PPl still want to know if Mark is working on the 3d Modual.

Though I do think that moaning that its your living is a bit stupid. Its only a hobby for me, and I dont really need an official 3d mod. I dissagree with Flame, that at this point you shouldnt really care. I agree that at this point you should either have settled for 2d, or picked a 3d engine.

However, if Marked said, "Its going well, soon.", or "Hummm 3d what 3d", would make a differance to the order in which I did my next project.
Maybe to the proffesinals it wouldnt/doesnt matter, but to me it does. It wont stopme using another engine in the interim, and as Ive said before there will be a MiniMaxB3d that makes it look like B3d anyway.

lol Flame, cannot you see that I said a different thing to you?

You said,
"If you do more things, although you fail more, you will sucseed more"

Whereas I said
"If when you do more things, a greater percentage will be succesful, if you Fail at a decreased percentage"

They are both right. And dont contradicte each other.
That was just you assuming that I dissagred with you.

hear hear, Elite Multiplayer is to be my last b3d project. Everything else im working on will be BlitzMax+Minib3d

Yes. However if there was a technique that could assure that you could consistently fail less, I think we would have heard about it now. :o>

No, cos Im keeping it a secret. HAhahahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAH whOOOOOO hahahah <-Manic

You people scare me more than evangelical Christians.

If a DX10 version of Blitz3D is released, I would buy it, even if is was 250 euro. That is, if it would mean I could recompile my project. The reason is, I like b3d a lot and I don't trust DirectX will stay backwards compatibility towards DX7 in the future. But then again, I've seen a lot of my favorite programming languages becoming obsolete. I hate it, but there's not much I can do about it. So if Max3D is coming out, I will most likely give that a try.

Only cos they dont read these pages, otherwise we would scare them more



(delibrate missunderstanding)

BTW if anyone wants to leave any comments on our flow demo thread that would be cool.

Were currently in the planning and preperation stage of our FLOW demo and want to make sure that when its released, it's helpful to the community. This will be taking up a large chunk of the 3 months were expecting things to take before were ready for release.

http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=69208