Poor old microsoft

Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Poor old microsoft

I can't help feeling sorry for them this morning.

In breaking news their IPod killer DRM "Plays for Sure" has been renamed "Plays for shorter" as testing reveals a 25% shorter battery life compared to playing unprotected MP3 files on the same device.

And the XBox360 rom has just been hacked to play backups, poor old Bill, what a terrible week.

I bet they're crying all the way to the bank.

>And the XBox360 rom has just been hacked to play backups,
>poor old Bill, what a terrible week.

No problem there, that just means your average gamer can get more games cheaper for his hardware.... That should soon traslate into more hardware sales.

Andy

In breaking news their IPod killer DRM "Plays for Sure" has been renamed "Plays for shorter" as testing reveals a 25% shorter battery life compared to playing unprotected MP3 files on the same device.


I hate DRMed stuff as much as the next guy, but to be fair: The testing method was flawed -- they were comparing 128KBit MP3's vs. 196KBit DMRed WMA's.

Most likely a good portion of the loss of battery-life was due to the higher bitrate itself, not just the additional encryption on top of it.

If they had compared identical bitrates, the difference would likely be a lot smaller.. Of course, that doens't make as good a headline.


And the XBox360 rom has just been hacked to play backups, poor old Bill, what a terrible week



That's nothing, I read somewhere that the guy that cracked DVD, says he will crack HD-DVD by winter!

When will companys realise that they will always be beaten... Eventually?

Dabz

A Microsoft rep responding to the hacking ..

"With Xbox 360, we had the benefit of learning from our experiences on Xbox. This allowed us to identify points of weakness that were exploited by hackers in the first generation and to eliminate those vulnerabilities in Xbox 360,"

Mmm.. They don't seem to learn many lessons when releasing newer (and more secure than ever!) versions of Windows. Each one being riddled with major security holes in the O/S and Internet Exploder. They even left the Windows Messenger exploit ON by default when releasing XP SP1. Duh!

No problem there, that just means your average gamer can get more games cheaper for his hardware.... That should soon traslate into more hardware sales
MS make apparently make a loss on each sale of the 360. They rely on owners shelling out £50 a time for the games to make a profit.


I don't know how these hackers 'crack' the beast but why don't console companies coat the main board and internal gubbings in an expoy resin to stop any probing?

..microsoft is disaster of IT..I always had thoughts like that, i was just without internet in early 80's to say that in public .. :)

The DVD firmware in the Xbox360 has been hacked, enabling games on DVD-R's to be played. The procedure requires that the flashrom in the DVD drive be desoldered, its data read (because there's a unique key in it), patch generated, patched firmware then flashed back and then re-soldered.

Not something the average chipper is going to be doing.

Also, the group of individuals involved in the development of the crack have also stated categorically that it will not be released. This bears true when you peruse the forum they are involved in.

So I think we can safely conclude that the impact on Microsoft is less then negligable.

I do think the power hugry mp3 playing is a bit of a laugh though :) I don't have an IPod, I've got a Nokia 6280 which quite happily plays 48Kb/s eAAC+ conversions of my music collection (2 albums fit into 64MB with room to spare for photos and videos). Battery life is fab :D

I think being able to hack the X-Box 360 ROM is a good thing.

It certainly made the original X-Box a marginally better console. For one thing you could upload music to the harddrive from games from your own burned music CDs. As well as play MAME stuff (finally some classic games to play on the X-Box)

MS apparently make a loss on each sale of the 360.
I've heard this postulated many times (for every console since Sam Tramiel through a hissy fit over Sony daring to sell PlayStation consoles cheaper than the Jaguar).

I have yet to see any convincing evidence - somewhat surprising that for three [four before Sega stopped making consoles] publicly traded companies, no-one can come up with an account of how these consoles are being sold at a loss.

I don't know how these hackers 'crack' the beast but why don't console companies coat the main board and internal gubbings in an expoy resin to stop any probing?
If it can be read at all, it can be reverse engineered.

Not something the average chipper is going to be doing.
Why not? You'll probably be able to get it done for the price of a game anyway.

Also, the group of individuals involved in the development of the crack have also stated categorically that it will not be released.
That's insignificant. Just give it time, someone else will come along, without having such qualms about being sued by Microsoft. Probably someone in China.

..microsoft is disaster of IT..I always had thoughts like that, i was just without internet in early 80's to say that in public .. :)


The biggest 'problem' is that microsoft is a marketing company first, and a software company second.

Much of their software is mediocre at best, but when you have 85% of the desktop market and a very captive audience due to your file-format lock-in, that doesn't really matter -- people will buy your stuff anyway, whether they want it or not.(*)

(*) Somehow it's cheaper to buy a PC with windows, than without an OS altogether, thanks to the little contracts MS has with system builders.

haha you have cheered me up Skid.

FlameDuck: What surprises me most is that you think Microsoft are not making a loss on hardware sales. Past history dictates that console manufacturers do not make money on hardware sales. That is why devkits and licensing cost a lot (amongst other things).

**EDIT** Errrm, on second thought I'd rather not get started on that discussion. I've got only circumstantial evidence which I'm sure isn't going to pass muster.

**EDIT2** You can't run homebrew on the 360. The hack only allows original software to run on a DVD-R.

Got a link skidracer ?

Apparently this rumour has suddenly become untrue. Or is that Microsoft trying to control the Internet perhaps? :)

What surprises me most is that you think Microsoft are not making a loss on hardware sales.
Because selling things at a loss is generally considered bad business, as it will devalue your stock (even if you're Microsoft). Remember a lie told a thousand times is indistinguishable from the truth.

This particular lie however has been regarded by gamespot as #3 on the 25 dumbest moments in gaming.

I've got only circumstantial evidence which I'm sure isn't going to pass muster.
Well I'll take circumstantial evidence over 'none at all' or 'wild speculation'.

Well I think MS is a wonderful company and its a shame that the XBOX 360 has been cracked already.

If it wasn't for MS then I'd not be self employed and earning money as I can't see the "I want it free" brigade from the Linux world paying for anything, let alone the complete mess of providing software across different distro's. Oh here's your software, but you need to compile it with X compiler and you'll require X libraries, good luck, bye!!!

OK, so we'll take a Mac instead. After 7 years I've never had one request to write Mac software so for me, it doesn't even hit the radar screen.

If MS is so bad for you don't use them, don't think about them, don't write about them. Nothing hits home harder than zero sales and zero press.

Because selling things at a loss is generally considered bad business


Except it is only a temporary loss. With further miniturization of the processors and increased yield over time (meaning you can make more CPU's at the exact same cost). the same goes for the video chipset, and generally decreasing RAM cost. In addition to that, many manufacturing facilities will have paid themselves off after a while, meaning you don't need to charge a premium to recoup those investments, and can comfortably lower the price for the exact same products and still make the same (or more) profit.

The costs quoted were based on *current* prices of the components, not the projected future prices. Historically prices for hi-tech components drop tremendously over time.

Just because a device is sold at a loss at the initial launch, doesn't mean that the identical components at the identical price doesn't make a profit a year down the road.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that MS didn't make money on the xbox hardware at launch?

It's nothing more than a calculated risk.

Microsoft will do whatever it can to capture eyeballs and conquer a dominant place in your living room. They have an obligation to their investors to increase revenue, and thanks to their 85% stronghold in the desktop comuting industry, they can't do much more to grow there. They *have* to extend into other markets... And say all you want about Microsoft, they aren't very good at dealing with a level playing field, so they'll do whateverf they can to gain an upper hand quickly. If that means losing some pennies to make millions down the road, so be it. Sounds like a good investement.

Also, selling hardware at a loss and make money on accessories/supplies/software definitely isn't a novel idea. Kodak was doing it for decades with their instant polaroid camera's. Cheap camera's, miniature fortune for the film. dirt cheap inkjet printers, medium size fortune for refill cartridges, etc.

well..it is very interesting Qube, that Linux'crap' is took attention for peoples such as German, Australian, French government, then Oracle,Sun Microsystems in order to use it as a OS instead of 'magic' MS windows, whos always sneaking some crap behind....personaly, I'm using MS products such as WinXP, but everything pirate..and I will always be happy to pay 2$ for WindowsXP or Vista or whatever..just to cover pirate CD's dealers expenses..in other words, everything I owe in person from Microsoft is pirate.. everything what is NOT from MS I pay regulary without any questions..and I'm feeling good about it..

Now you can dual boot between OS X and WinXP on either a Windows-native system OR an OS X-native system without emulators. And everyone's saying that OS X on a PC runs pretty fast, and the price difference is amazing.

I don't really think MS is that bad of a company. They have Visual Studio, which is pretty good, and WinXP is much more customizable than OS X, because there are more XP developers out there. Well, I'm not sure of that, but it seems like there are.

Personally, I want the best of both worlds, so when I have enough money and have a really neat office with a giant desk, I'll have WinXP, Mac OS X, and Linux running. There are qualities unique to each system and why not just combine everything?

I can't see the "I want it free" brigade from the Linux world paying for anything, let alone the complete mess of providing software across different distro's.
I can't see the Microsoft warez monkeys paying for software either.

But I guess one mans 'complete mess' is another mans 'profit margins'.

Found the link myself Skidracer, thanks for nothing :P

http://www.mp3.com/features/stories/3646.html

Heavy DRM not only slows down an MP3 player but also sucks the very life out of them. Take, for instance, the critically acclaimed Creative Zen Vision:M, with a rated battery life of up to 14 hours for audio and 4 hours for video. CNET tested it at nearly 16 hours, with MP3s--impressive indeed. Upon playing back only WMA subscription tracks, the Vision:M scored at just more than 12 hours. That's a loss of almost 4 hours, and you haven't even turned the backlight on yet.


Even if the X-Box360 hasn't been cracked, it won't be for long, every system since the PS1 has been modded.

Because selling things at a loss is generally considered bad business, as it will devalue your stock (even if you're Microsoft).

Not necessarily. Console hardware is treated as a loss leader. They get their money back on games sold and further hardware revisions bring the manufacturing costs down. Retailers make very little profit on hardware too. It's all about game sales - the console exists purely as a means to get people to buy games and to lock them in to buying games.

They get their money back on games sold and further hardware revisions bring the manufacturing costs down.
There are two things wrong with this statement. Primarilly that the most financial successful consoles (PS1 and 2), have also been the most easilly and heavilly pirated, so even at the horrific rates I'm sure Sony take, I doubt they would be able to recover from dumping. Secondly, yes manufacturing price goes down. So does the price of the console. It's called a competitive advantage.


Not necessarily. Console hardware is treated as a loss leader. They get their money back on games sold and further hardware revisions bring the manufacturing costs down. Retailers make very little profit on hardware too. It's all about game sales - the console exists purely as a means to get people to buy games and to lock them in to buying games.



Same can be said for printers... They sell them at a loss, though, they must make it back up sharpish, what with the price of ink cartridges!

Same principal!!!

Dabz

Printers aren't sold at a loss either. Take your average cheap inkjet printer apart. Nothing inside it costs more than a tenner. The main difference is that a lot of the logic that used to be performed in the printer, is now being performed by your drivers.

The reason ink cartridges are so expensive is because it's the price you're willing to pay. Or risk going to a dodgey refiller.

Even if the X-Box360 hasn't been cracked....
It just have..

The original post:
http://www.xboxhacker.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=33&topic=481.0

Here's what they did:
http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEukZpklFAhkcWwSgZ.php

The video to back it up (100MB):
http://rapidshare.de/files/15899907/360hackORG.mpeg.html

Or the short video (19 MB):
http://rapidshare.de/files/15810304/360hack.mpg.html