UK Gov wants backdoor into Vista.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4713018.stm

No secret backroom meetings with the NSA to insert keys and
codes just a flat out open request.

Rediculous.

Thats just asking for microsoft to add a security hole into their system! Theyve added enough, damnit :P

And im pretty @#!*ed at the TCPA @#!* too.

Heheh, The UK Gov needn't worry as they'll be plenty of backdoors in Pista to become apparent later, just like there is in every other Windows OS.

Ditto what Cygnus said regarding TCPA.....no way I'm getting Vista now.

It is simple... the zealot religous right wing idiots (aka Republican Party) want to see what programs you have boosted and what mp3z you didn't pay for and what porn you look at... Thats why they subverted google and the other search engines... If you (or any average pervert) used a "search engine" for porno???

The way I hear it they are attempting to monitor "file sharing" programs such as LimeWire et al...

As long as @#!*er Bush and Shooter Boy are in the White House we will loose more and more of our freedoms in the guise of "keeping America Safe!"

Whats annoynig is end of this year, most likely, I will be upgrading my system since it reached the end of its life-cycle. (my 6800 is only a year old, what a waste of nearly £200!)


If i'm forced to Vista I won't be happy.

I want a dual boot, IMO, vista might not be that bad and may be good for us developers, depending on how TCPA was integrated.

My bet? Someone will hack these protections out of vista. I for one will be first to download such "hack".

preventing the programs that microsoft dont want us to run, from running- What about our new Bmax EXE's, freshly compiled? :S

The whole point of having encryption is so you can keep data secret. Giving governments backdoors defeats the purpouse of it. Is Microsoft going to cooperate with China too, and give them the keys so they too can scan the computers of their citizens to make sure they're not breaking any of THEIR totalitarian laws as well?

Booo Government!!!!

So basically to hell with our privacy, we're all criminals?

We're all criminals who steel red-crosses.

The one thing I don't get is that government agencies are so stupid they can't figure out that whatever code they put in there to 'catch criminals' (never never mind spying on random citizens) can also be used by those same criminals to avoid capture!

Ofcourse they're also missing the totally obvious point that 95% of average people use rediculously insecure passwords that can be bruteforced in seconds.

I'm particularly fond of TCPA enabled PCs not being able to execute unauthorized software, if there's a quicker way to kill a bad platform, it's to make sure there's no software for it. Besides the rediculous notion that Microsoft is even qualified for (much less an industry leader in) trusted computing, it's nice to know that some database, somewhere is going to be bogged down with all the rediculous spam and chainletters in the world.

Ofcourse it's going to suck to be the government clerk tasked with searching through all that pointless junk, looking for e-mails that might contain clues to where all the illegal music and pr0n is comming from, never mind real threats from terrorists or organized crime.

Actually 'trusted computing' is not likely to be an issue in China, they have 'the great firewall' remember?

Yeah. Kinda like copy protection.

There are many illusions we live under - there is no such thing as personal privacy - the government already has pretty much every little bit of information about a person and can obtain what they need when they need it.

Additionally, in the UK , if you are arrested for any reason your fingerprints and dna samples will be taken. This will be kept on record,forever, even if you are released with no charge and no further action.

We also live under the illusion of "Innocent until proven guilty". If that were the case there would be no such thing as "remand". The reality is that you are considered to be guilty, and therefore held on remand, until you are proven to be innocent in court.

Freedom of speech is another illusion - political correctness has overridden the freedon to discuss many subjects in a sensible manner.

With the increased threat from terrorism and the alarming rate of growth of criminal gangs, who control large chunks of a thriving underground economy, its no surprise that governments will want to have access to every "private" document or item a suspect may possess.

It's a stupid pointless PR exercise as under UK law you can be jailed for not giving the police passwords to encrypted data when told to do so by courts.

According to the book "The total resistance" by Major von Dach that describes the methods of an occupator, this is as johndevoy said a PR thing: They already got access to your data using the security holes microsoft adds intentionally to each OS release and sells in the very first place to the network of western allies services. Now they also want you to be aware of their presence inside your computer. They want you to be afraid of their presence. This method is usualy described as "govt terror". The point is they ain't got the tools to observe every citicen, so they randomly observe or arrest completely innocent citizens to give the impression they're everywhere, additionaly they do this PR thing. Big Brother is watching you, that's what they say.

The only thing that is really confusing me is the fact that many nations are kind of occupied by "their own" governments.

"It's a stupid pointless PR exercise as under UK law you can be jailed for not giving the police passwords to encrypted data when told to do so by courts."

In that case, what needs to be done is to create a system where it is impossible to tell there is encrypted data on the drive. Encrypted data looks like garbage data, and you can disguise it as such. One might mark sectors with encrypted data as bad so they don't get overwritten, and then the only way to access the data would be to input the sector number and the encyption key. Then there is no way to prove that your drive just doesn't have a lot of bad sectors.

Of course they could decide that having a lot of bad sectors is proof enough that you're hiding data. In which case you'd have to find a way to hide the data and file tables encrypted in the free space on the drive, without the os overwrting it by accident, and without using any special markers to prevent that.

Another thing you can do is use steganography. That's where you hide data in other data by altering the data in subltle and undetectable ways. For example, hiding a text file in an image by altering the colors slightly.

Personally, I don't think a government should be allowed to charge you with a crime for refusing to reveal an encryption key, because that is akin to being forced to testify against yourself.

That's the truest words I've read in a long time... The UK is getting to the point where hard working people are used as cash machines. Me and my girlfriend bring over £2500 a month into the house, and we've still got little money to play with!

Compulsary ID cards (which are coming), are going to cost £150 a pop, on top of ID which we have now, like passports and driving licenses! Council tax is running sky high, well over £1000 a year. It's around £0.91 a litre of petrol, £120 for car tax, £5 for a box of ciggies and TWO POUND TWENTY ONE for a pint of lager in my local!!! :(

If the UK goverment want to know what I'm up to on a night, they've just got to give me a knock, because they've got me stone broke!!!

Honestly, I'd be better off living in Yemen!!!

Back on topic: If Microsoft stop PC's from being an open platform, they'll literally kill themselves!

The beauty of PC's is that people can nearly do whatever they like on them! If they try and change that, the user base probably will diminish, and a fair few user will migrate to other, less intrusive systems... Like Linux!!!

Dabz

The prolem with TCPA is, this is hardware implemented. So if all new motherboards come with it and there's no way to disable it, it will work even with linux.

The reason why manufactors would do this is: they wil be able to completely remove unwanted software from the market, so in the end it's all about money. Big lots of money. You want to release an AAA game title? Well then let us first see some dozens of million dollars to make sure you're in our trusted apps list.

At the other hand some people hope they will be able to use it as a total information control device, so finally they'll be able to censor the internet, something they are fighting for since a long time without success.

What do you reckon?

So, if a company builds non-TCPA PC components, what will happen???

Will goverment(s) ban the sale of them?

Could this set the stage for a new platform, replacing x86 computing?

Will the modders actually end up saving the PC as we know it?

Instead of buying Vista, should we rebel and buy a PS3?

So many questions, so little time...

Dabz

> If i'm forced to Vista I won't be happy.

THere's noone stopping you from upgrading to XP! let alone Pista. Vote with your common sense.

Now renders the whole thing pointless as you can't now trust it , since they'd never admit they could get into it anyway.

Oh dear.

All hopes for security officially dashed then.

@Dabz - you are clearly from up North, those are some mighty cheap prices you just quoted, here it is more like: £0.98 a litre of petrol; £180 for car tax; £5.20 for a box of ciggies; £2.70 pint of lager.

Most UK people I have spoken too in the last few years openly speak of living in a police state, there's a strong feeling amongst some that Tony Blair should stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that we're not so far from totalitarianism ourselves.

Is an announcement such as this just an extension of rule by fear?

Given the relentless security patching by OS providers it doesn't make sense that Microsoft would patch in an intentional security breach.

All one needs to do to gain access to a computer is have sufficient knowledge to find security loopholes and not report it, then do it for a day job - 1 reasonably talented hacker working 9-5 could happily keep MI6 well ahead of the security patches.

EDIT: If this was anything other than fearmongering then the govt would be asking Apple to put a backdoor into OSX - because that is far far harder to hack.

XP is a good OS :o)

Just sidegrade to Linux, then you can @#!* on any Government trying to access your stuff.

We are on our way to puppet-ed democracies covering over corporate or council based theocracies. Where it is a coin toss as to who or what is really in control over the government, but it is clear that the elected ones are either not in control, or weren't really elected.

Much of the first world is over-due for a good revolution. Something bloody with lots of rich-powerful-heads on pikes and the drafting of whole new constitutions.

Too bad the powers that be have learned so much from those that failed before. It is nearly impossible to over throw them now. And even if it was done, something worse would find it's way into place.

Playing fair doesn't get you into power, cheating does. It is a fact of life that cheaters always have the advantage.

Sagan felt that the reason we don't see any super-advanced alien races floating by, is because they tend to destroy themselves before they get too advanced.

We may be reaching the end of what our own race can evolve to. It is likely that humanity won't make the cut.

It is too bad, really, I'm sure we've managed to do 1 or 2 things of real note...

A revolution is no way out of the misery. But democracy is a constantly ongoing fight for your rights. A "long war strategy" against a worldwide club of hegemonially predisposed subjects sotosay. So there are two ways: fight for the rights of the people or collaborate with the enemy.

Governments don't want to catch criminals most of the time. If governments truly had any incentive to catch criminals, they would catch them. For example: the capture and conviction rate for bank robberies in the U.S. is nearly 100%.

The idea is to spy on the average person. The idea is to have power. With criminal law, you only have power over lawbreakers. So the idea is to criminalize so much behavior that nearly everyone is a criminal of some sort - Then the government has an excuse to exercise power on the vast majority of people.


Despotism and Totalitarianism are the end result of Democracy. Classical Liberal Democracy understood this, and so they included a whole bunch of concepts in Democracy to prevent it from turning into Despotism. For example, Freedom of Speech, and completly unregulated press completly seperate from the state, a system of checks and balances to make sure no part of the government got too powerful, and strict constitutional limits on what the government can or can't do.

But once the government has control of education, it can indoctrinate children from birth. Once it has control of the media (through having outright government owned media, or through regulation of the media), the media can completly manipulate people. Once it has the power to sieze and redistribute property, it can do so in order to buy support for the ruling elite. And once the code of laws becomes so complex that an ordinary person cannot know or understand the legal system, then everyone is a criminal and subject to arrest. And once the state is so giant that a normal person can't keep track of what it does (the government of Sweden had to spend the equivalent of almost a million dollars to hire an army of consultants JUST TO FIGURE OUT HOW MANY GOVERNMENT AGENCIES EXIST THERE ARE!!!), then there is no chance of an informed populace.

Sorry, but the inevitable consequence of the type of "Social Democracy" that people seem to want is Despotism and Totalitarianism. You can complain about the government all you like, but most likely people support the government as being the solution to all the problems they can think of. Well, a government powerful enough to solve all your problems, is powerful to tell you to "screw off" and to do whatever the hell it wants. The myth of "Socialism" is that the government ARE the people. The government is NOT the people, the government is simply a monopoly corporation. If you don't trust Microsoft to build good software, then you shouldn't trust your government to do everything else.

The only solution to Totalitarianism is strictly limited and decentralized government.

@Banshee

Correct, all the way from Durham City (well, about 4 miles west of Durham City to be precise) :)

Still, what knarks me is that John Prescott ended up owing over £10000 in council tax, and not a baliff letter in sight... Some auld aged pensioner owed £57 and they put her in prison!!! And I'm not kidding either! :/

To all non-uk members, council tax (Charged anually at over £1000) is a tax charged for getting your bins emptied once every week... Or paying for some @#!*ty artist to make a statue or something for £25000!

We've also got to pay £127 a year to watch the television... If you get caught without a TV license, you get find £1000!!! Bummber or what

To be honest, could you imagine an American coming over here and filling up at one of our service stations... They'd faint!!! :)

The best thing is, or worst thing is... We put up with it!!!

Now where did I put that one-way ticket to Yemen? Mmmmm

Dabz

Note: This thread will probably get locked now! Mmmm

Dabz, i was in durham on the weekend. my mum lives in nevilles cross and I am from bishop auckland he he

We have that TV license thing too. One day a guy was here, from that office. I said I ain't got a TV. The guy then said he can hear the 15 kHz monitor modulation signal :).

They make about one billion every year, 90% goes to a national TV Station that none ever watches.

Just sent them a letter, saying TV was crap and I have no TV anymore. Saves me some hundered $ every year. Now I don't open the door any longer if unknown people are knocking. That happens rarely and if it ever happens, it's something bad anyway.

Or by Rupert Murdoch owning close to 90% of all the worlds media outlets. The problem is, it doesn't have to be government controled. It's good enough to have it controlled by the one man who agrees with the policies of the government.

Maybe it's more the other way round: governments agree with the plans and goals of the multinational economy powers, such as the industrial military complex or the oil or monetary lobby.

the thing is whoever is in charge will ultimately become a power crazed loon. I know if I was suddenly made prime minister I would have all non artists arrested for re education

yeah all know what happened last time an 'artist' came to power

@Ruz

Wahey... Someone from Durham, I'm a Langley Park lad myself (Much nicer than Bishop! ;) hehe)

Do you ever get down Durham (Or the Pot and Glass) for a drink when you are back home? If so, maybe partake in a beer or two over the lastest 'WHERE'S THE 3D MODULE?' thread! lol



That'll be the BBC then, well, unless Eastenders is on! :D

Dabz

>>yeah all know what happened last time an 'artist' came to power<<

Yeah, this Ronald Reagan guy was really a catastrophe. :o)

I haven't read the thread. However, I look forward to Vista and the fact that I might buy a new computer just for it.

Rupert Murdoch doesn't own anywhere near 90% of the worlds media, all though I would agree that he owns too much.

How does one get a monopoly on media outlets? Well, one reason is that for TV and Radio, bandwidth is divied up by the government. Those with political connections or a lot of money get a government enforced monopoly on bandwidth. In non-bandwidth based media, the government creates all sorts of regulation in order to create a high fixed cost to participating in the media. If it cost a million dollars in order to comply with all the regulations to start a newspaper or something like that, then that excluses the vast majority of people competing.

Monopolies are not natural. Outside of intervention by government, monopolies rarely exist. There are natural limiting factors to how big something gets. Government is the origional monopoly, and essentially delagates its monopoly power directly or indirectly on corporations.


There would be no oil lobby, or monetary lobby, or military lobby, if there was nothing to lobby. Once you create a powerful state that has vast power and resources, self-interested parties will naturally lobby the government.

If you don't want a totalitarian state, you have to limit the power of the state. That is the only solution. You can't have a state that interviens into every area of life, and yet isn't "totalitarian". That is a contradiction. So you are going to have to give up your dreams of a centrally planned paradise on earth if you are truly against totalitarianism.