Dev Team, Any Max3D News You Can Release?

Miscellaneous Forums/General Discussion/Dev Team, Any Max3D News You Can Release?

we've all been... well, lemme rephrase that... i've been :) waiting patiently for the past couple of months for something... is there any news that you can release regarding the progress on BlitzMax 3D module development...

seeing that it's near XMas and all...

thx

--Mike

A few months back Mark's worklog said that it would be next year, and I dont think we're talking January.

God, was it only a year ago that everyone was clammering for BMax? And this year, it's BMax 3D module. What's it gonna be next year, I wonder? :P

Probrably still the Max3D module? Hahaha :) Sorry...

lol, maybe, but I hope not. I couldn'r bare to go through a whole year of BMax3D whinging. :P

perhaps you should try go through the whole year of Max3D *singing*!?? ;)







ok, I'll get my coat..

It's an age old problem, indie devs are always blamming their tools and not using what is available rather than accept the fact they're not in the industry as a professional for a very good reason...

... who's blaming anybody about anything !!!
i don't see anyone blaming anyone around here...

--Mike

I blame Red... ;o)

heyyyy!!! all i was askin' for was a lil trickle of hope, just something to keep the faith during the holidays and into the new year...

that's not to much to ask from Santa Sibly and the elves for xmas... is it :)

--Mike

Actually, whats happening, is Blitz3D users *know* there will be a better product. I'm one of them. I'm holding out for Max3D but i can't hold out forever! Thats why i've got my lil torque book etc etc.

It's an age old problem, indie devs are always blamming their tools and not using what is available rather than accept the fact they're not in the industry as a professional for a very good reason...
That caused a genuine LOL here! :)


It's an age old problem, indie devs are always blamming their tools and not using what is available rather than accept the fact they're not in the industry as a professional for a very good reason...



'Cause the 'industry' stinks! Well unless you're Shigeru Miyamoto, Will Wright, Peter Molyneaux, Warren Spector, or one of the very few other people who get to do what they want.

Anyway, Max3D will be great but I'm not pressed for it.

Truth is that Indie tools are limiting. With blitz3D you can only do so much before you hit some kind of brick wall. It's not always the coders or artists fault. And neither is it always a lack of skills.

one big hurdle is time and the other money. If we all had both, there's no way we would be using Indie tools at all. And neither would we all be struggling at home to build something good.

From an artists perspective there are a ton of limitations in blitz3D's graphics engine that holds you back. Many of these things only become apparent when you start making an actual ambitious game that has a lot of interactivity.

As a stand alone graphics renderer you can optimize things enough to make pretty cutting edge shaderless graphics and have it run pretty fast. Great for tech demo's

Once you start adding gameplay, physics, collision, AI. Start trying to optimize culling and LOD and use fairly advanced materials you get a lot of limitations in how you can organise your scenes and draw them.

Another problem with working with blitz is that many more experienced people in the community are aware of blitz limitations and are quite willing to ignore obvious problems in your work because they understand that you had to do pretty clever optimisations and used innovative techniques to overcome them. Or hit a dead wall.

Show that same amazing blitz creation to a pro who doesn't know the engine limitations and they will rip it appart.

They won't understand that you have suface count hurdles to overcome that require you to build your level a certain way.

They won't get why your working around alpha sorting issues by creating things a certain way, or why you are using techniques in some placed but not using it as extensively as you should. Or why you can't have 600 seperate entities, fast dynamic shadows, alpha that sorts correctly. Use the same textures throughout your levels and combine same brush meshes to lower surface count at the expense of propper culling of your scene.

The lack of texture compression, and why your dynamic lighting look bad.

And are incredulous when something like intercollision between animated objects doesn't really exist.

I had to explain all these kinds of things at an interview recently in quite a bit of detail so they would understand why my work often looks the way it does.

And thats before you really start looking at the gameplay itself, and the demands your game makes on the CPU that hold back other areas that in a modern engine would be greatly minimized.

@Cygnus, lol, you and me and another makes three!

IPete2.

Or why you can't have 600 seperate entities

That's strange. My old geforce 2 runs a blitz3D app at well over 40 FPS (which is good for a geforce 2) while drawing 6000 individual entities.

Once you start adding gameplay, physics, collision, AI. Start trying to optimize culling and LOD and use fairly advanced materials you get a lot of limitations in how you can organise your scenes and draw them.

Gameplay? Physics? That's up to the programmer to do. If you can't make a fun game, please don't blame it on Blitz3D.

Colling and LOD I have done many times with extremely good results, I've even had about 1000 * 1000 poly models (all on the screen at the same time) in a scene at >70 FPS (using my LOD system along with my polygon reduction algorithm) with nearly no visible quality loss.

fast dynamic shadows

Maybe it's just me, but I have never seen shadows, commercial or otherwise, that have not slowed down the game very considerably. If you want shadows, buy sswift's shadow system. It's fast and works well.

Another problem with working with blitz is that many more experienced people are aware of blitz limitations and are quite willing to ignore obvious problems in your work because they understand that you had to do pretty clever optimisations and used innovative techniques to overcome them.

In my experience, I have never run across a difficult barrier like you describe except for:
1. Shadows
2. Pixel shaders.
Both of these are unsupported by Blitz3D, and you are correct in regard to these. Although shadows are possible, the one reason one might choose not to use Blitz3D is it's lack of pixel shaders. Hopefully Max3D will be able to do all that Blitz3D can't.

And are incredulous when something like intercollision between animated objects doesn't really exist.

I have never had this problem, simply because when one of my games requires collision this complex, I have already decided to use one of the freely availible physics engines for Blitz3D. However, you are correct that you would encounter problems with an animated character if you require collisions for each limb.

Use the same textures throughout your levels and combine same brush meshes to lower surface count at the expense of propper culling of your scene.

I also agree with that. If you're going to make yourself a scene occlusion system for large indoor environments, the surface count will be higher than you could acheive with C++. No doubt Blitz3D does have it's limitations, although I simply disagree that it absolutely could not be used to produce a commercial quality game.

When Max3D is released, I hope it will provide all the "features" Blitz3D lacked. Naturally, I also would like Max3D to be released soon, but I wouldn't complain about it's release date. Of course, the sooner it can be released, the better; since some people have projects that can't seem to wait and move off to other engines, since they have no other choice (such as Red Ocktober who has switched over to DBPro). But it will be done when it's done, and if BRL rushes the release of it, it will most likely contain bugs or be unstable in some way.

The surface problem, def is limiting. When you add textures, when you start to animate entities. The animation of entities, using boned animations, is a frame killer tbh. Try having a fair few animated models running around, 70 + onscreen surfaces, collisions, gameplay... etc It's very hard to manage.

Yes john j you can do a lot of entities, but try building a level with a 100's of entities made up of 100's of unique meshes. Then try baking half decent lighting into that level.

In the end you find that the best you can do is try and use the brush on as many surfaces as you can and combine them all into as few single surfaces as you can restricting what you can do quite a bit.

blitz is missing a lot of features taken for granted by professionals. I'm not saying you can't do great things but the ammount of work required to produce the effect you want and work around the problems are big time consumers.

I think we did pretty well with the racer, and Aerial Antics back in a time when there weren't decent exporters. BUt if you used a modern engine you would know what I mean. I'm not talking about whats avaliable to indies but comparing to commercial engines of 2-3 years ago that I worked with on 1st gen Xbox games.

Yes, Some Max3D info would be nice.

Mark Will post in this thread in 15 minutes so hang tight.

Ok, I only want to say the first Evak's post is so TRUE
that I couldn't agree more,
this specially:
Once you start adding gameplay, physics, collision, AI. Start trying to optimize culling and LOD and use fairly advanced materials you get a lot of limitations in how you can organise your scenes and draw them.


Coming back to topic,
I'm with Mike, I mean, come on, we all know how pleased we
get with just a few sentences from the "gods" ... :)

Paolo.

(Posted 1 hour ago)
Mark Will post in this thread in 15 minutes so hang tight.
Not feeling that black magic.

I'm with Mike, I mean, come on, we all know how pleased we get with just a few sentences from the "gods" ... :)
Whoa! Thou shall not discuss religious topics on BRL owned and operated fora!

* 3D module for Win32/MacOS/Linux - ETA: 6 months


So quoteth Mark's worklog. Due to the hideously late GUI module, I'd say this has a year minimum before release.

Actually, this year was the year for whining about MaxGUI. Next year is definately the year to whine about Max3D.

Last time Mark said something on the subject, he said he plans to release numerous super alpha demos whenever something interesting happens. Since no new sa demos have been released since that first one, assume nothing interesting has happenned.

EDIT @ GA : I love it. It's slow, but still makes me want to get up and dance like a crazy person. Esp track 3...

Toby I downloaded that EP, it's cool and quite unique.


That's strange. My old geforce 2 runs a blitz3D app at well over 40 FPS (which is good for a geforce 2) while drawing 6000 individual entities



Are they copied entities? Same mesh? Same textures? Are they all running collisions? What kind of interactivity is there? Additionally, 40 FPS ins't a lot.


Colling and LOD I have done many times with extremely good results, I've even had about 1000 * 1000 poly models (all on the screen at the same time) in a scene at >70 FPS (using my LOD system along with my polygon reduction algorithm) with nearly no visible quality loss.



Were they different meshes? Were they animated?


Maybe it's just me, but I have never seen shadows, commercial or otherwise, that have not slowed down the game very considerably. If you want shadows, buy sswift's shadow system. It's fast and works well.



Yes, shadows slow any game down ... to a degree. We used Sswift's system already ... and it's not useful beyond a few entities on low detail environments ... depending on CPU of course.


No doubt Blitz3D does have it's limitations, although I simply disagree that it absolutely could not be used to produce a commercial quality game.



Commercial just means you sell it.

Sure, Blitz does that everyday. However, you're not going to go toe to toe with the best tools and games out there at all. In a lot of the current tools out there things that you have to work around in Blitz are completely abstracted out of the picture letting you focus on the game at hand.

We've made fun games with Blitz and we still are. Bottomline though is that it's only got so much steam ... and it's not enough to compete beyond a certain level.

We've made fun games with Blitz and we still are. Bottomline though is that it's only got so much steam ... and it's not enough to compete beyond a certain level.
A poor tradesman always blames his tools.

A poor tradesman always blames his tools.


Sometimes it's legitimate to blame your tools. However, always blaming your tools just means you're bad at your job.

Sometimes it's legitimate to blame your tools.
No it isn't. How is it legtimate to blame a tool for your poor choices?

No it isn't. How is it legtimate to blame a tool for your poor choices?


Deceptive marketing? False advertising?

Flame ... stop putting a spin on everything.

Blitz only has so much going for it, that's a fact.

Because of that I've gone on to other tools for different projects that Blitz couldn't do so well, which in parallel to your spin on the subject ... is a good choice.

Tools make a world of difference, it's foolish to think otherwise.


Tools make a world of difference, it's foolish to think otherwise.



*More* than foolish.

Blitz indeed *can* only do so much. Currently the racer *just* fits into 32mb of Vram. I know thats not alot of memory but you could do much more if blitz has matured a little bit more. It's a shame it's coming to an end early.

I can guarantee alot of people wouldnt have thought or even cared about these issues when they started with blitz. I didnt when i worked on the racer! 3 years on, now theres an opportunity with it, and it isnt doing as well as it could because the renderer doesnt like the surface count- or whatever.

Tell me, would you rewrite 3 and a bit years of work? or would you be disheartened by it?

Are you all senile or something? You had this discussion only a month ago, and a month before that and a week before that.

Stop generalising stuff.


@Mark, tell us something new. Tell us that you made little or no progress, we'll be happy. I will. Just to know my plans.

Deceptive marketing? False advertising?
I don't believe Blitz3D ever advertised shader support, dynamic shadows or even DXTC.

Blitz only has so much going for it, that's a fact.
I never said it wasn't.

Tools make a world of difference, it's foolish to think otherwise.
Again, you are twisting my words around (and oddly enough accusing me of spin, how ironic). I didn't say tools are insignifianct, I said you have no-one to blame for your choices than yourself.

Tell me, would you rewrite 3 and a bit years of work?
Yes. Agile principles dictate that you embrace change, and not be afraid to delete and/or change code. If it was necessary for me to meet a deadline / get paid on time, there pretty much isn't anything I wouldn't do.

or would you be disheartened by it?
Dishearted? No. Sure nobody likes when things don't work the way you think they're supposed to, and yes I understand it can be frustrating hitting your head on barriers outside your sphere of control imposed either by your tools or unrealistic performance expectations. I understand completely or something else entirely.

That's not a good reason to throw your hands in the air and declare the suckage of your tools. MAybe instead you should just work with what works. 32Mb too little for you? Use 64 for some of the extra eye-candy. Noone is expecting to get state of the arts graphics on a card w. 32MB, no matter how clever a programmer you are.

I wasn't declaring my tools suck ;) I love blitz. It's just getting a bit old.

I've never put so much effort into a project, so to have to rewrite after for example, three years? 1) I'd never reach the deadline of 3 months

I've said a few times- I wish i *had* redone it now, but at the time there was *no* time.


Use 64 for some of the extra eye-candy.



We gave in in the end and pretty much said we would prepare the media for max/another engine. No matter how it runs in blitz- which I now class as my prototyping tool :)


...actually, i need to get skilled enough in something to be able to do more than prototyping now :P


[edit]

I forget who said it originally, but:

Forgive my English, I'm from England.


Again, you are twisting my words around (and oddly enough accusing me of spin, how ironic). I didn't say tools are insignifianct, I said you have no-one to blame for your choices than yourself.



Whaaaa ...


We've made fun games with Blitz and we still are. Bottomline though is that it's only got so much steam ... and it's not enough to compete beyond a certain level.



Your response ...


A poor tradesman always blames his tools.



No you didn't say my tools were insignificant ... you inferred I was and that I was blaming the tools. Then you tell Noel that you can't blame the tools for your poor choices (which seems like an inference that you should choose the right tool for the job). Which really had nothing to do with the original point that I said Blitz runs out of steam at a certain point.

First of all I wasn't blaming my tools for anything. I was just stating the fact that a certain tool only has so much potential. Why you responded the way you did ... well that in itself was a sick twist. Then you twisted again the concept of the debate by bringing 'choice' into it.

At least we can both agree now that tools have limits, which is all I said to begin with. Your attempts to stir the pot don't change that.


Blitz only has so much going for it, that's a fact.




I never said it wasn't.



Right so you put a spin on my original statement:


We've made fun games with Blitz and we still are. Bottomline though is that it's only got so much steam ... and it's not enough to compete beyond a certain level.



Which ... I was just stating that Blitz can only compete up to a certain level, in other words it only has so much steam, potential, ability, whatever. I never blamed anything on it.

Can we all grow up a little here? We all know that FlameDuck can make cutting remarks and is oft misunderstood, just as we all know that Blitz has limitations.

The point that FlameDuck was alluding to is that we know (or should know) Blitz' inherant limitations and its applicability to particular projects.

People will, of course, always want more and will make a show of complaining about a lack of versatility in a particular tool whilst ignoring a lack of versatility in the decision making process that led them to use that particular tool.

This doesn't make them less than optimally clever, it makes them human.

I'd love for Blitz3D to provide many more features than it currently does. I'm a lazy person, I find that Blitz provides a comfortable development environment. Like any area of life, we tend to stay where it is comfortable and we will resist pressure to move to an uncomfortable environment.

There is general complaint about Windows as an OS, but where are most of us comfortable? We could all switch to Linux, Zeta or any number of niche (or not so niche) systems but it would be a shock to our system to make that change.

Let us quit the tit-for-tat arguments. They lead nowhere useful and the thread will end up being information poor.

I don't believe Blitz3D ever advertised shader support, dynamic shadows or even DXTC.


I never said Blitz3D did that, I was talking about tools in general. Instead of making assumptions, how about you ask?

I don't believe Blitz3D ever advertised shader support, dynamic shadows or even DXTC


Technically shader & Shadow support was promissed when Mark said all those years ago that Blitz3D will go DX9.

I wonder how many people bought blitz3D after that was said?

I did and then i bought bmax ... and i still dont have any native shader support... But i have written many good shaders :)

Hey, we're working our a$$ess off trying to add open source stencil shadow support so stay put. A week or so.

We, i mean me and spacemonkey. Some really inspiring results so far.

Larry Wall, creator of the Perl programming language, once said:

"The trick is to use Perl's strengths rather than its weaknesses."

Is that supposed to be a Perl of wisdom? :P


Is that supposed to be a Perl of wisdom? :P


Oh dear. The door is this way.

You sod! Why, I oughta... :)

Good job I remembered my password - I haven't logged off this site in ages.

Hee hee...

tee hee that was amusing - but I checked the link before I clicked it - lol!

IPete2.

tee hee that was amusing - but I checked the link before I clicked it - lol!
So did I but I still couldn't resist. I didn't think it would actually log me off, for some reason. :)

James, is that actually linked to anywhere on this site? I've never seen a logout link, I thought it not possible, short of scrubbing my cookies...

James, is that actually linked to anywhere on this site? I've never seen a logout link, I thought it not possible, short of scrubbing my cookies...


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