Should 'Blitz' be dropped from BlitzMax?

How's this for a topic!

I had a recent discussion with a work collegue who is a self-confessed Linux geek. He happened to mention developing applications/games and talked about the lack of getting the right type of programs and games he wanted to own.

For me this seemed to be a good opportunity to mention Blitz Max. As I started talking about how great BlitzMax is at cross-platform compling etc ... I kind of felt somewhat silly. Let me explain:

Whenever I mentioned 'BlitzMax' it just seemed a little immature and I got the feeling the collegue was not taking me seriously. A little alarm bell rang in my head. The term 'Blitz' kind lessened the importance of the language and thus I found myself saying 'Max' instead.

The conversation turned into ..

"You can download a demo of 'Max' for Windows/Mac which will let you get the feel of the language blah blah. There is a Linux version of 'Max' for sale too."

Am I being silly here?
Does 'Max' sound more professional than 'BlitzMax'?


I ought to lay my cards on the table at this point ..

I've used and own Amiga BlitzBasic II, PC BlitzBasic, PC BlitzPlus, and PC BlitzMax.
I fully respect the Blitz crew for their longevity in the market and I hope none of the above is taken in an offensive manor. It is merely a 'thought provoking' post.
I love creating stuff in Max (I mean BlitzMax hehe!)

What say you?

I think the Blitz part is fine, the dropping of Basic has been the breakthrough IMHO.

If it had been called Blitz Basic Max it would have no credibility no matter how good it might be.

In your mind the word Blitz is innextricably linked with the word Basic. To a non-Blitzer, it isn't.

I do not personally consider BMax a BASIC language, the only Basic association it has for me is the URL you download it from.

the word 'Max' alone is too much linked to 3ds-max I think...

Far as I'm concerned, BlitzMax is a bad name overall. PureBasic? Great name. DarkBasic? Hell no.

It has to sound technical, BlitzMax sounds like a sports game, not a programming language. PureBasic sounds like a programming language. DarkBasic sounds like some idea dreamt up by a 12 year old AOL'er (except now it would be |]4|2|< |3451[..).

yeah, and its confusing enough when people think your talking about Mac's, 3dsmax, or blitzmax

I just call blit3d blitz3d and avoid the mention of basic. When you say basic peoples eyes dull and you can see their attention wander to something else. Kind of like you don't exist anymore lol.

The couple of times I've been asked what I used for our games, I just say it was written in a pretty cool basic/C hybrid tailored towards 3D game development. Worked so far.

I think 'BlitzMax' sounds fine... your colleagues reaction may not have been based solely on the name; I've mentioned Blitz to a couple of people at work who have turned their noses up simply because its not produced by Microsoft and doesnt end in '++'.

I have a hard time with the MAX name, as everyone uses Max as a shortened term for 3DSMAX. Combine that with 'Macs'... and you could easily say you're working on graphics in MAX to be programmed in MAX to be playable on Macs.

Blitz is the least of its worries. :D

I agree with you about the Basic thing. Thankfully I can say Blitz or Blitz3D and people are cool with that.

bMax?

bMax maybe B++

Well, I do seem to remember a long time ago suggesting to BRL to call it "slug".

I quite like the name "slug".

let's call it 'Large' .. there's at least one person who'd like that ^_^

Largeness, LargeGUI, Large3D

I just refer to it as bmx, seems easier and better than saying blitzmax to me.

Um.... How about calling it Frank? Or Kate?

Kate's a good name... And it also means you could say, "I was up all night playing around with Kate" or "I got Kate to do amazing things last night" or "I just upgraded Kate!"

Anyway, I can't imagine BRL are going to change the name regardless.

Or...

BUMP... Blitz Unlimited Multi Platform?

I think Blitz ... sounds a bit silly as well. But I know what's it's capable of so I really don't care. Maybe B-Max or something ... shorten the Blitz to B. So B-3D, B+, and B-Max. Sounds like a better grade than a C ;)

The minus in between isn't very nice.

how bout B# or B++ ?

I would like it to be called B#

TBH I have found myself in the same situation, while talking with some people in the industry I was asked what I was playing with now, when I said with glee that it was not blitzbasic they turned with a look of suprise.

When I then said its called blitzmax, they just sighed and said ah just another basic lingo then, I ofc explained it was nothing like that, but by that time the mental impression of the language had already been set in stone.

Now had I said hay I am using B++ or B#, they would have said, hay whats that, is it any good ? much like c ? or java ?..

As a test I did this a few times on MSN, after reading this post and I found 100% of the time people were more interested in finding out more about B++ than Max.

In fact you should have another sale in a faw minutes/hours cos one of the guys i was talking to liked the sound of this B++ stuff that when he finally found out it was called BlitzMax lol, he had already seen some source and liked it.

I think the common problem is creating a name that gives the proper , well not proper but best mental image of a language, and I think b++ or B# does that, while Blitzmax or even just Max seems to tie it into its roots. even though its nothing like blitz, its moved on, is it not time its name also moves on ?

I meant it as a hyphen not a minus. Yeah I think B#, B++ etc...

I wonder how many sales of Bmax are to people moving from 'more respected' programming languages and how many using it as a next step from Basic languages (blitz and others).
I think if I was coming to BlitzMax 'cold' I probably wouldn't have given it much time or got frustrated in the 30 day demo period.
Is there a chance it'll get caught in a midway limbo land?

What about BOO (Blitz with OO? :P

I also talk about is as Max.

I can confuse Evak when we're talkin about 3D since i will randomly think of something about BlitzMax when he's talking about 3DSMax.

At least, it confuses me.
I agree. Blitz is a bit...old now.

NO MORE <letter>++ though. NO! XD

I like that. I also like BOOP so we can call it Betty.
If it was Betty Boo we'd have to be "Doin' the do"

lol

Not B++ or B# though as C kindof came from B, which was some guys re-write of a language whos name i cant remmember (though it began with B)
Something along the lines of

There is already a language called 'B'. This would be even more confusing.

Obsessing over the name of a language is just pointless. You think BlitzMAX is bad, how about two guys standing in a hallway having a serious conversation about Java, Python, Ruby or Groovy.

The solution is real easy. Stop taking yourself so seriously. It doesn't matter what the language is called, it matters what it does. People will use the most rediculously named programming language, if it does what they want.

True ... I mean Java? Come on!!!

FlameDuck, you have a point, but I believe it applies
mostly to the people who already know what BlitzMax is.

To the C and Java crowd, BlitzMax/Basic/2d/3d does sound
a little amateur. I have also had people give me looks
when I tell them that I'm programming in BlitzMax. I used
to tell them "it's a cross between BASIC and C", but that
only made it worse.

Now if I think about it too much, I don't know how to
describe it to people. These days I just say "It's like C,
but with easier access to stuff like OpenGl". That's the
best I can do.

That's my opinion.

The C-snobs think you're taking their job when it becomes too easy.. :P

..peoples whos judging according to name without pure knowledge or at least test drive behind their statements, cant be reason for upseting anyone...

I agree with you, Naughty Alien. A simple name
shouldn't affect anyone's opinion of something. But I
hate to admit that it does. ;)

I'd love to say "we don't need to impress any C-Snobs"
hehe, but you can't just ignore that section of the market.
I'm sure C-converts make up a large portion of the
BlitzMax community, despite the initial image the Blitz
name gives. Am I right?

As far as I can tell, Blitzmax has grown to be something
much more respectable than any Blitz that has come
before it. And because of that, the name doesn't fit
anymore.

I'm very proud to be a Blitz programmer, and keeping it's
name is fine too, but I still believe the language is better
than that.

I would say, "It combines the best parts of both C++ and BASIC, to provide an optimally structural, efficient, fast, and easy-to-use programming language. Let me put it this way: When those people developed C at Bell labs for the purpose of creating operating systems, they knew what they were doing; When those people at developed BlitzMax at BRL for the purpose of easy and powerful application and game creation, they knew what they were doing."

Most of us already refer to BlitzMax as BMax....so.....

While relatively on topic, I was wondering about the default
IDE's compiling capabilities, and what I should tell people.

I've heard of some of you compiling C code in it and of course
you can compile BASIC code in it as well (Both with a bit of
tweaking, of course) Do you guys think I should I use this as
a selling point when explaining BlitzMax to people?

I think this capability sums up the flexibility and ease-of-use
of the BlitzMax language very well.

"I was up all night playing around with Kate"
"I got Kate to do amazing things last night"

Are you sure, Rob?

I'm glad it's not just me who avoids the use of the word BASIC. I wish their primary domain name didn't have it in too. It costs only a few quid to register a domain name and a few minutes to setup a forwarder from www.blitzbasic.com, and it almost certainly pay for itself.

To be honest, if Blitz marketted BMax as a BASIC language they'd soon get shot down for it and yet the URL shows that they are quite happy to take the stigma of BASIC without taking the advantages of it.

Documentation littered with data types such as function makeItHardToRead:TGadget(someParams:someTyes,moreParams:moreTypes). In no way is BMax a BASIC. It compiles C right? It's a C compiler with a Blitz framework/engine.

The word Blitz is the corporate identity of Blitz Research. I see no harm in this.

Edit: well cook me a kipper they already have the domain blitzmax.com and it doesnt change the URL in my browser to basic when I explore the site. It seems they're already a step ahead of my moaning.

I think B-Max sounds good. It also sounds like a rapper. Similarly, I call Unreal Tournament "Unreal-T". Like Mr. T's extreme brother who snowboards and stuff.

I can only hope you're not serious.

Then dont advertize BlitzBasic. Advertize BlitzMax, like so!


http://www.blitzmax.com/

[edit]
Oh, PRIMARY domain. Sorry :)

The problem with this discussion is that all of those nifty names that people propose already have their domains taken.


Andy

Come on. No disrespect to Dennis Ritchie, but there is no programming language more amatuerish and unimaginatively named than C! We've made a language that mixes B and BCPL, lets call it C!

Yet despite it's meager beginings as a way to get Unix ported to different architectures, and it's uncanny resemblance to Fortran, it's probably the single most used programming language in the world today. Why? Well certainly not becuase it's a better language, but because it was first.

You want to create a successful programming language, start in the early 70's and make it free. But for BRL, that's a little late.

No, it compiles BlitzMAX - you need a third party application, namely the GNU C Compiler to be able to compile C. If you want to be elitist you can always say it's like an assembly language (what BCC outputs, and FASM assembles into object code) because it'll do that "out-of-the-box".

I don't get it. If you want all languages to be like C, why not just use C in the first place? Someone who is religiously biased towards using C is going to think you're an amateur regardless of what language you use. Hel, some of them will even look down on you if you can't make your own makefile. Is that the kind of programer you want to be?

Yeah. What the world really needs is more programming languages that sound like rappers.

Wow... C is a religion now! ;)

When I was asked by professionals what language I used I just said it was a company secret, but it was a DX compatible language. They seemed satisfied with that.

I would never have taken the chance of using the words Blitz or Basic.

In fact I even feel embarrased saying Blitz to family members - it sounds silly and always will.

I always felt that to gain a greater market share Mark should rename all his products to something that sounds a little less like it's from Toys'r'Us.

I like the name, and like referring to it as 'max'. There's no possibility of doing a game or a complex app (AFAIK) with 3DSMax so there should be no confussion.
And the name suggests something like... 'the ultimate blitz'. For me it's ok the way it is, I feel proud when I say I use bmax because I find it one great language, and that's how it will make a great name - not the other way around.

Having 'basic' as part of the name is a much bigger obstacle to being taken seriously than the 'Blitz' part -- dropping that was definitely a good business move.

But BlitzMax probably sounds neutral enough -- While many 'serious' programmers wouldn't have heard of it, in their minds any programming language other than major ones like C++, C# or Java, and anything not 'blessed' with the Microsoft-prefix must be an amusing children's toy.

No matter what name you give a language, until you have millions of users you're always going to have to deal with that hurdle.

Funny cos its true.

Don't like the term "BMax" - reminds me of a video recorder that went the way of the dodo despite its technological superiority.

If you're going to name Max after a rapper, call it 'Detroit Velvet Smooth'

Hehehehe.

BM+++ it should be called.

Do you guys really stand around talking about programming languages? I talk about interesting stuff with my friends. I can't think of a more boring subject to talk about casually than programming.

There's a difference between really talking and posting on a forum. The only reason I am posting this is because I am bored stiff at work. Of course we all have better things to talk about in "real life", but a forum can help pass the time for some of us.

Speak for yourself! I live the Geek life and I love it.

Blimp

Ok Andy... calm down lad! Perhaps take a trip to Mac's Convenience Stores.

"I program in Detroit Velvet Smooth." Has a nice ring to it.


I've had this problem too, but not from casual conversation. When other people and I are discussing how to proceed with development of projects, they have a knee-jerk negative reaction to blitz. Even though he'd never heard of it before I brought it up, I had one guy announce "Blitz sucks!"

Don't really talk about programming languages at all normaly, but at a recent interview I certainly felt a little sheepish mentioning blitz because of the types of people on my panel.

Also, mention Blitz3D or Blitzbasic on say the Torque forums, and you will often get a ton of negativity from people that have never so much looked at it.

I think this is more a basic problem rather than blitz though. Most people still picture oldschool basic like some of us grew up with on 8bit systems.

I think a lot of the torque community would be surprised at just how much more flexible blitz is to their scripting language, and a big bonus if you don't have a fairly advanced knowledge of C++ or the time.

Really looking forward the the 3D module, assuming it will be good. Will be nice to have the ability to customize the render engine, rather than live with what were given, which is probably the single biggest problem I find with blitz3D.

C++ or C# - that are crazy names...

Blitz - is also not a good name (<-kindergarden)

Blitz on german (an i live in germany) is a word for Flash. If i would say - i programmed a game in blitz - they would say: what blitz? - LOL (crazy name!)

good words are: "COBRA" - "RAPID" - "POWER" - "MAX" or other pre/postfixes

bad words are: "BASIC" - "BLITZ" - "++" - "PRO"

but my best favourite name is: FREESTYLE (!)


List o other names:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabetical_list_of_programming_languages

I like whoever's idea it was to call it B-Max to sound like a rapper. Then we just fiddle the syntax a bit so we have FoShizzle..Next loops and Bitchwize operators and all the kids will want to use it.

PhatLoop Ayeee = 0 To 4
	PhatLoop Nuff = 0 To 20
		Bitchin Ayeee + Nuff
	Word
Word

Lol, I've always hated the C++ snobs when coding in basics, mainly because I wasn't able to code in C++. Now I am (more or less), and it feels cool :-)

This way I will decide whether to keep working with BMax or switch entirely knowing the plusses and minuses of both.

BMax as a language (if used properly) is really just a step away from C++, the big thing it does is provide you with a neat set of commands that you otherwise would have to find out in much more complex libraries. As a minus you get a compiler that is less optimized (but pretty decent anyway) and somewhat less flexibility (not that it matter much). The direct OpenGL wrapper makes it a serious tool.

I think this is a silly argument.

But since I enjot silly argumentation let me infer my $0.02 here as well...

I have likewise noticed the eye glaze when I refer to BlitzBasic. True I used Blitz3D as a name without thinking of it... reception was better. BUT (they said) is it OOP?

I explained that it could be... mostly your style dictated this and that BMax was indeed strongly OOP.

Showed them a few thigns I had written in Blitz3D... the glaze went away from their eyes and the majority wanted to know the sites URL.

Now on some of the computers in the office the things I had written would not work... UNABLE TO CREATE 3D... even with the computers that had AGP (albeit OLD AGP.) SO...

IMHO the requirements for the video are the primary handicap of this language... It restricts the number of people that can access your game to a higher standard (but that is another argument) NOT what the language is called... which is only a silly EGO argument.

You know I think BLitz converts to ASM OBJ code before it is linked... if you wanted to walk around with a swinging "thing" and say "I program in Preassembled Object Code..." would this not also be true...

Silly - like 'The White Album'

I think Blitz is a great prefix to a product name. It's kind of descriptive of what you are getting. To do something in good order we say something like "We'll blitz it" or "We'll blitz thru it". That's what using a Blitz Research product is like (I've only used BB3D but look forward to a BMax migration). It's still an amount of work but it is possible to get incredible results quickly. Aptly named.

I think the `BASIC` descriptor in previous products is a possible drawback. We've discussed it before - people think (when you mention programming in basic) that the summit of your ability is to print your name on the screen in flashing colours. Without a laptop and demonstration software to hand any cause is a lost cause and even then it's all uphill.

I think that's a shame. Years ago it was predicted that future programming languages would all follow a move towards resembling language more closely. Sadly, the reverse is true, with the exception of BASIC's.

"negativity from people that have never so much looked at it."

I had a 20 minute discussion once with a woman about a book I'd read, and finally she said 'Well actually I don't know that bit, I haven't read it.'
Pardon ???
'No, I don't need to read it, I know it's crap.'
What planet is this?
(In case your wondering, it wasn't The DaVinci Code.)

The name of the language only ever matters to insecure losers who haven't ever released a damn thing because they believe by mentioning C or C++ they'll gain a shred of credibility.

Excuse me, but i'm an insecure looser and I dont use C++, I think your wrong ;)

BOOB

Blitz Object Oriented Basic

With Blitzbasic you works with basic things, but BMax have expanded (expented?) Features. This thing makes BMax nothin hard to use: BMax is like Blitzbasic, but with additional highclassed Features. So i think BlitzMax is good named.

Noodle Cower written:
>> DarkBasic sounds like some idea dreamt up by a 12 year old AOL'er (except now it would be |]4|2|< |3451[..).

Erm.. teh idea comes by a 12 year old AOL'er. I think so, since i haved see the DB quality. ^^

BAPS

Blitz APplication Standard. BRL could come up with a list of rules for application development, if you app conforms it gets stamped with BAPS.

I'll get my coat.

Which reminds me of the glory days ... receiving a BUM in the post - Blitz User Magazine!

Surely Blitz Application Programming Standard?

Yeah! I love playing with BAPS! :P

MarkMax...

bløtzmøx

I still stand with One Eyed Jack on this... I think he summarized my excess verbage succinctly.

We can not call it B++ because BlitzMax doesn't use "++" as an incremental operator. BlitzMax uses ":+", so we should call it B:+... oh man, no we shouldn't. Also, who cares what big wigs think about BlitzMax, let them spend months doing what we can do in weeks. Heyo!

I know, let's call it BlitzMax!!!

THE END

*credits roll*

MaxBlitz rulez..

If your game or application is any good at all and does what it's supposed to do, nobody gives a damn what it's written in.

Darkheart

Oddly enough, a lot of people do. It's bizarre but true. They'll be impressed with software I've written right up until I mention I used Blitz3D* or they'll brush aside all the stuff I've written before to stubbornly insist that I should be using some other development tool.**

* This should in itself be a big clue that they're not making any sense. If it isn't impressive because doing it with Blitz is easy whereas doing it in C would be a challenge, then maybe, just maybe, you should rethink what tool you're using and why.

** I still chuckle about the guy who kept trying to make me look stupid by challenging, "Well, can Blitz do X?" Every time, I nodded and then typed a couple lines to demo what he asked. After three times, he finally announced, "Well, whatever. Torque is still better." The funniest part is that he could not himself do any of the things he was challenging me with. Not that Torque couldn't; he couldn't. heh heh

Well most normal users don't seem to care in my experience, admittedly it is mostly applications that I've used Blitz for but most of them have probably never asked themselves the question, "What language is the program written in?". Even for games I would be surprised if a user came back and said something like "level 2 is great but the game would be better if it was written in C++".

Maybe other people have much more advanced users/players than me.

Granted other developers or studios etc may look down on Blitz as amueterish or simplistic. I have no aspirations to be a professional programmer, Blitz let's me do stuff I would otherwise have to pay someone eles to do. That's good enough for me.

Darkheart

@-=Darkheart=-

Yeah in an Ideal world. I had the chance after sending some demo code to a publisher, to get a good deal and make them a nice game which would have gotten me and probably them a ton of cash.

However they requested the full rights to the game, as well as game source, which for the money they were going to pay was not a problem for me.

All was well until I got the e-mail saying, "Your code wont compile" - cutting a long chain of e-mails short, they were trying to compile it in their C compiler, so when I explained it wasnt a C game Engine or Script and that it was in fact blitz. they requested I write the game in C instead.

End of the story is that the project got dropped like a hot stone and I guess some one else is now working on the project and coding it in C.

I wont use C++ or C#- I hate it TBH, so being told by a publisher that they didnt want a basic language used for the 20 odd crap reasons they gave over the course of the mails actually @#!*ed me off a lot. and its partly responsable for me not having done any code in a good few months.