keyboards anno 2005

Is anyone of you as annoyed as I am about the migration of classic PC keyboards to obscure StarTrek-models which are completely alien?

Because I'm a tracker, I'm kinda used to move my hand blindly to certain keys. Since my current -classicstyle- keyboard is suddenly getting fubar'ed I was in search of a new keyboard, only to find out that keyboards are rapidly changing from classic to obscure:

- the keys are setup in a straight line, not angled anymore towards the higher keys.
- keys become more and more like shallow notebook-style keys.
- functionkey-islands become more like 4x 3 keys instead of 3x 4 keys
- pgUp/Dn/end/home/del/ins island becomes equally obscure
- some keyboards have -using their driver- all kinda default features installed for their functionkeys, so rather than keeping things generic they try to impose a way of working to you!

Sometimes I wonder who's idea it was to change the keyboards so drastically... the general public, or the design-department who need to do something for their job or they'll get fired..

Today I again will try to find a classic keyboard somewhere.. ._.

I REALLY (ARG!!!!) hate it when the insert/home end etc block of 6 stops being 6x2 and starts going weird or like 2x3! I use those keys all the time when programming.

I have an MS keyboard (fantastic) on one machine and an IBM (rubbish) on another. I haven't checked out MS's current keyboard range but they must do one that suits you? I know MS gets a load of bashing for various things but they do make excellent peripherals, IMO.

P.S. I have an MS optical trackball instead of a mouse and love it! :)

I have an MS natural but it took ages for me to find one with the correct home/end 2x3 block, I actually had to get an older model! M$ has modified the keyboard standard to a non-programmer poopy one as well!

I must be one of the few who prefer it this way, the functionkey-island suits me more for vid games, and the Home/End/Etc just works better for my hand, all a preference thing though.



Now that I hate, more-so when they have an "F-Lock" key that defaults to off when you start your PC up, meaning I have to hit the dang key everytime I turn it on so my F-keys dont do the actions labelled on them...

Yes. At work, I'd buy as close as I could to standard layout. At home, for coding, I still use my 1993, 101-key one (the way a keyboard is meant be be <g>).




Yep! The best design that I could find at work, made by Microsoft, had both of those "features." At least the Enter key was the right shape, and Backslash was above it.

101? I always used a 102 key, that was my first, what's the difference? 105 used to be a stinker we hated as it was the first windows key keybaord.

Yeah, cant stand the fat-enter keys here either, this keyboard I'm using here is a Microsoft MultiMedia Keyboard 1.0A, I could do just fine without the "MultiMedia" part of it though..., even though I do use the handy volume buttons on it.
(either that or reach down to my subwoofer and turn the volume dial)

I have a microsoft natural multimedia keyboard and as far as the keyboard layout goes. I love it.

I didn't originaly like the chunky CTRL, WIN, ALT, curved pacebar an delete moved over to the right. But once I sat down and used it it was fantastic. Very ergonomic and easy to play games in the dark.

Reasons that Keyboards don't slope up much anymore is that they force you to bend your wrist up more causing strain injuries over long periods. flat layouts are supposed to be much better.

I got this keyboard after getting a lot of pain in my wrist, the keyboard and smart glove made a HUGE difference.

My favourite keyboard of all time is still the [a http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.uncreativelabs.net/xtreview/keyboard.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.uncreativelabs.net/xtreview/xtreview.htm&h=288&w=352&sz=27&tbnid=NELJJG2ecpYJ:&tbnh=94&tbnw=116&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dxt%2Bkeyboard%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN]IBM PC/XT 83-key Keyboard[/a]. The tactile response and clicking noises are so satisfying. My only qualm is that Backslash isn't above Enter.

I'm in love with laptop keyboards. I just like the way they feel and I'm able to type much faster with one. Of course, when a key breaks off it's much harder to fix, but otherwise - I love them. The only thing I do wish is that they had a full NumPad. Of course, I haven't tried many other keyboards, and maybe I'll find a keyboard that's much better - more silent - I hate noisy keyboards, and possibly has the same reaction/feel as a laptop keyboard, but is a full one.

Oh, and it has to be wireless.

Far worse than that -- Microsoft's keyboard designers decided to go in for a collective lobotomy some time ago, and redesigned their entire line of keyboards (office, gaming, multimedia, wireless, internet) to use (vertical) island of *5* keys instead of 6.

In their infinite wisdom, they removed the INSERT key, and made the DELETE key double-height instead.

Insert got moved as a tertiary function on the PrintScreen/SysRq key.

I inadvertedly bought an MS wireless office solution (wireless keyboard+mouse). I loved the mouse, but literally returned it to the store within 5 minutes after realizing insert was gone.

The shift-Insert a keyboard combination I use all day long. It's the universal 'paste' command, that works in every single program... Especially if you also switch to Linux or SSH shells regularly, CTRL-V simply isn't an option there.

I now have a 'regular' wired MS optical mouse, and a cheap chinese wireless keyboard that has a normal insert key, a normal 3x2 island, and a normal cursor key layout.

Anyway, those 'special' keyboards were all over the place a year ago. I don't know if MS reverted back to normal ones by now or if they stuck with them, but somoe poking around on the MS website hailed this as a revolutionary change because market research had shown that 'most people never use the insert key, so removing it made their keyboards 'less confusing'. In Microsoft office you could still use the Printscreen/Sysrq/Insert key to switch between insert and overwrite mode, but Shift-Insert was simply no longer an option. *Sigh*.
Don't you love it when a place like Microsoft designs their products for the lowest common denominator?

Now, if only one could get a half-way decent keyboard without the windows keys, things would be perfect.

xlsior: Yeah I use the old stle cut and paste all day long too, which is why I was horrified to see what M$ had done, I looked at all the pictured zoomed in on the internet until I found a standard layout although the Fkeys are tiny and there are these silly multimedia buttons on the top making the keyboard an inch deeper!

It seems that it's a UK/US difference. Shift-3 on a US 101-key is "#" and shift-backquote is "~". Since shift-3 is "£" and shift-backquote is "¬" on the UK version, an extra key with "#" & "~" is added.

Me too - I learned Ctrl+Ins/Shift+Ins back in the QuickBASIC days and it's a reflex <g>.

I'm very glad I'm not the only one having problems with this.
Maybe someone relevant will hear our complaints.

By the sounds of it:


You guys also have this same crappy keyboard.

Great, isn't it? Whenever I get frustrated, even a little, at
something, I like to take the opportunity to bash my fist on
this cursed keyboard.

That way it will wear quicker and I'll have no choice but to
buy a new one...(or probably an old one)

Best ever, KeyTronic keyboard:



Joy to type... I have "the classic" beige version at work, but would like swap it for "cooler" black. I have MS multi-this-and-that-wireless keyboard at home and it sucks bigtime.

WendellM: Thanks for that info, so US ones must have an L shaped enter key as it isn't on UK ones. Well thats fulfilled part of my RDA of Geek info.

Actually, it seems to be about 50/50 for the US/International keyboards.

Some have the large enter key, others have a small one.
But rather than having a 102nd 'bonus' key like on the UK keyboard, the shaping of the US enter key seems to be related to where the \ ends up. Some keyboards put it to the right of a smaller right-shift key, others to the left of a smaller backspace key, others leave shift & backspace alone and eat it out of the lower-left of the enter key.

Some US keyboards have an J-shaped enter key, with the \ key stuck to the right side of the right-shift key. Others have a more-or-less rectangular enter key, with the \ key eaten out of the lower-left of the Enter.

If that makes any sense.

Grey, I believe that xlsior is right. The oversized "L"/"J"-shaped Enter key seems to be a separate issue from whether it's 101 or 102. I don't care for US keyboards with a big Enter key myself, so my Fujitsu keyboard has a "normal" one:




:)

My \ key is left of Z and the shift key is smaller, this is the only place I'm used to. My enter key is eaten into with a #~ key.

I've got the opposite problem. Got a MS natural multimedia thingy at work with the 5 key vertical island (was the only natural USB keyboard we could get at the time) and hated it at first. But now I've got so used to it (and I'm a Ctrl+V guy anyway) that I now can't use my keyboard at home (an old MS natural one with a "proper" 6 key horizontal island). I'm looking to replace it with a 5 key vertical island one so they're both the same, but they all seem to be bloody wireless - which I hate - we spend enough on batteries for the kids toys as it is :-)

They do sell PS/2 -> USB converter cables to hook up a PS/2 keyboard to a USB-only system.

Hey xlsior, did you actaully go to bed and are now up again?

Um... yes. I don't sleep much on weekdays. Probably 5hrs average, last night less (3.5 - 4)

ouch, anyway its 2am here and the kids'll wake me up around 7-8am, so I'd better hit the sack.

I was lookin to buy a new keyboard the other day and noticed the huge delete key in the center....I was scared.

I love the new MS keyboard layout with the insert moved and the extended delete. At first I was grumpy when the wife insisted I use it, but the natural keyboard with the odd large keys on the perimiter is actualy very good once you get used to it.

Only problem is I hate the thought of using someone elses.

Unfortunately they didn't just move they insert, they removed its most important attribute -- the shift-insert paste feature.

Yeah, but they don't work with the (MS natural) keyboard I had previously. Dunno why, but on searching it turned out it just didn't do it. Ho hum.

Anyway, now that I'm used to the huge delete key (and I've always used Ctrl+V rather than Shift+Insert anyway), I'm very happy with my MS Natural Multimedia thing. Only bugger is I now want one on all my PCs and can't afford it just now :-)

The new flatter logitech keyboards are superior. They are similar to the ms keyboards but you will end up typing faster on these now.

These new logitech keyboards also have extended delete and so on. This is to go with the changing times - one uses delete quite frequently. They are also lower profile.

Stop being spastic and resisting change for the better people...

Legend has it, there exists a keyboard with a triple full stop key, although I think it's only a myth.

My biggest problem with logitec is that their mice aren't as ergonomic and the buttons not as well placed.

Heh, anyone tried an official 2 button Mac mouse yet, the worst mouse I have ever used in my entire life. And yet another example of form over function.

http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2488

eewe, that makes it harder for ke to eye-notice a key based on its surrounding shape,.
We dont hold our hands like:
\|/ \|/
/......\
| .... |
We hold them like
/_ _\
| ... |
| ... |
which suits diagonal panning over the keys....or so i imagine


Probobly a some random executives who've never touched a keyboard ibefore... (they tell people to type for them), And think, Hey, lets change something to give ourslevs an edge!.
Also, probobly the same people who design modern tiolets with that 'abiliy to get blocked' thing they added into them a couple of years ago...

The new keyboard designs are most likely designed with touch-typist secretaries in mind, rather than moaning indie game developers. :)

I happen to like the enlarged Enter and Spacebar, myself. As for the Insert key: get rid of the bloody thing completely, I say. The only time I 'use' it is when I accidentally hit it and end up over-typing a load of stuff (no, I don't stare permanantly at the screen while typing). Arrgggg!!! So annoying. :P

I've found it a lot easier to type with the MS natural keyboard. Before I'd have to look at the keyboard. Now the new largeer 'function keys' and relocated delete plus the split keyboard mean I can type a lot better whilst watching the screen.

I don't like logitec keyboards as I always have trouble using the function keys on the left, particularly when playing games. Don't know if they improved lately.

As far as INSERT goes, I only ever used it by accident and would have to spend a good 5-10 seconds trying to find the stupid thing and turn it off. Didn't even realise it was missing untill this topic turned up. It's a secondary function to Prtscn

Thats the one beef I do have with the keyboard, the F Lock has to be toggled the right way in order to make screen captures.

i agree completely.

I've lost a few thigns before because i @#!*ed up the code without even knowing, by over-writing some of the lines blindly then hitting f5 without checking. DAMNIT.

However, Insert can be useful when not molested indecently with your little finger while thwacking away at the keys.

Re: Insert/Overwrite. learn to touch type hehe. Actually I thing the overwrite function should be removed, but I do use it as an alternative paste key.

sounds like we nearly all got stuck with that stupid Flock thing, and not a good word said about it either.

I think they changed that back again on the new 4000, so I'm going after one of them when I can.

I got this dumb-ish logitech OEM (from kustompcs in the UK, not seen it anywhere else, or I'd not have mentioed it here) for my laptop, as it's so much like it's own KB but so much better as has a full numeric pad for a start. It's a good replacement for the lappy, but useless for a normal everyday keyboard. got to get back to a bent keyboard in a hurry now.

Now if they made this in a bendy version I might be a Logitech convert as M$ stuff has sadly been going off the boil lately. Here's hoping the 4000 sees things back to some good changes and not just change for the sake of it.

Keyboards and mice are not lasting as long as they used to either, I expect ten years our of these and now we are down to two or less. Not really acceptable that.

What about cases?

I've 2 classic-models (by InWin) .. but the current trend seems to be the all-designed-weird case, with irritating plastic fronts/sides that only make it harder to get inside the case (in case you need to replace a HD, or build a new card in).

I have a drive cover on my case by choice - the room my PCs in get VERY dusty. :)

I agree with all of that: Both the enlarged enter key, and the insert..Actually i ripped mine out the other day....gently though so i can put it back in if need be.

*bump*

Today I was shopping around, perhaps I would bump on a classic keyboard. I saw something with exactly the classic layout.. but unfortunately: it was to be sold with a PC, not seperate. :(

Furthermore, dunno if it's me, but does anyone like the recent double " ' action? As in: you type a " but nothing shows until you press some other key or a 'closing' " or something.. who's idea was that for goodness' sake?? (Or is it me and do all coders like this? :P)

oh btw, some months ago I stepped into a typical store where I could buy a classic keyboard, perfecly classic, no double " ' stuff, tilted and with audiomute, volume +- etc. for 5 euro because it was a junk-keyboard their service-ppl take around @ locations. Yay^2 ^_^

(sofar I've little succes when in shops I bring an analogy about musical instruments that didn't change their layouts over the past centuries :D)

Thanks. I learned something from this thread. I can now use my function keys again!!!

EDIT: Nope, never mind, still can't use them :o(

I love everything on my recent MS natural keyboard appart from the stufid function lock key. It's not a pain till you want to do a CTRL+ALT+PRT screen capture in game and then find that the function lock was on the wrong setting.

Prt scr and pause are both function keys on newer keyboards.

Are they? Any idea how to enable them? Only 2 of my function keys work... I've got one of them Trust wireless keyboards.