I no longer want to be a programmer, I want to be

a 3D artist.

This morninq I awoke, logged into my Machine, and launched up Blitz3D. As I started to work on a module in what I know will be The-Ultimate-Blitz3D-FPS-Game (not PLASMA, lol) I had a epiphany: "Without Art Skills my game will never be a reality - Period".

For a few moments, I stared into the monitor looking at the semi-transparent reflection of a disgusted and angry face. Then it all went blank. Everything!

Exactly my thoughts recently, which is why I am now buying models.

Join the club! I 'm tortured by this for many years!

meee toooo...

--Mike

I bumped into Evak and my problems were solved, however, It would always be nice to be able to do it yourself.

If I lost contact or fell out with him, i'd be completely stuck- "I only know cubes" :P and you may or may not have seen some of my early work.

I was able to make a skinnable Simpsons puzzle game in qbasic using years of previous work, and managed to create 2d animations of the simpsons drawn by hand, pixel by pixel.

I am still at the same place. Only now, my images have to look good at 1280x1024 instead of 320x240, so i'm screwed ;)

Yeah you can be a programmer and buy cheap stuff in, once you've made money buy more expensive stuff in. It save you money as hours wasted on your own crap art is money downthe drain.

Even with a 10,000+ Game Engine there is no hope without original game art. sigh... Now i see the light.

I will be spending money on game artwork instead of new game programming tools.

Do you really want to do art, or do you just want art for your game? If you just want art, spend some money on TorboSquid. Try to find an author that has a complete collection of almost everything you need, so all your stuff will fit together.

It works the other way around. My programming skills are somewhat limited. But since I don't enjoy coding all that much, I'm much happier being an artist anyway.

What Evak said! :)

Well, I have these awesome ideas in my head. But, due to the lack artistic skill, it is difficult to present them to a skilled artist who can bring my visions to life in 2D and 3D. This is a very HUGE dilema if you see it from my perspective and throws me into the dreamer of games category.

At the moment I have few game development choices that dont require large investments of money: games with less-than-original art, shabby art (my own), primitives, or no art.

I'm in favor of using the first two choices. IMHO it doesnt make much sense to waste good game play on a game with mediocre artwork.

Yeah, game development is almost always a big investment if you want to be successful. Gameplay will get you so far but without the polish and captivating visuals you will normaly be hard pressed to attract customers.

More people should team up with people that have complimentary skills, rather than trying to be a 1 man bedroom coder. Making games is too much work for one person to make a real success of it. Used to be different but the stakes get higher as the tools get more powerful and easier to use. A lot more competition these days, that didn't really seem to be there even 2 years ago.

I remember Jeremys plan on GG where he was completely down over the fact that Aerial Antics only came 4th in its IGF category, the exact same as his Tru Vol game he had submitted 2 years previously.

With more teams joining the movement, many made up of experienced pros that have left the commercial industry for some creative freedom and cointrol of their lives, the requirements have really shot up for those wanting to make a successful business out of games. To the point that you need money and preferably a dedicated marketing guy with experience.

I started out concentrating on 3D art (eg. I was a computer animator for a while,) but came to realize I'm really only interesting in creating art assets to the extent that they are useful for interactive work, so I learned to program. Now I'm at best half-assed at both; doh!

I can do both really well. So there.

What Rob said.

You had a stroke? Oh my...

Seriously, its good that most of you are realising that games are not made by programmers. They're made by artists, and programmers help a little, but not always. Blitz3D is in fact for artists, not coders, if you ask me.

Good Points Evak.

Lenn,

No Stroke. LOL. When I stated everything went 'blank', I meant my hardrive went blank because, I deleted all my gamedev software!

Just kidding, but, the urge was there.

Years ago I realized that games are not made by programmers alone (nor a lone programmer for that matter), but, I ignored this notion. I'm no longer motivated to be a game programmer, nowadays I find myself being drawn to the darkside taking the path of the 'Suit'.

Marketing, Publishing, and Distribution of Independent game titles is becoming a greater goal. I'd rather sell 100's of other Indie Games than just 1 or 2 of my own. That is what im preparing TournamentBlitz.com to do.

To this date, I'm currently working in a project collaboration which will merge all of my past Blitz3D projects (except PLASMA) into one. It will be my final stand as a Game Developer.

I do intend to learn how to model as hobby, but, no more game programming for fun.

Ow, not in the face!

/shrug - I do code and art, my brother does art and code. It's a subtle difference, but you cannot master one without having a good understanding of the other.

I'll always be a better programmer than my brother, and he will always be a better 3d modeller than me, but without understanding the issues that each other face we'd have no useable skill at all.

It's important to achieve a basic level of skill in each discipline of game production before specialising in one, otherwise you'll never achieve your potential because all the aspects inter-relate with each other.

hehe, Frank Taylor :) you the Frankie Taylor posting on the torquebasic thread on GG :) responded to a thread earlier and wondered what was so familiar.

I know of a good marketing guy thats pretty local to me with a lot of industry experience both in games and larger companies like Oracle. He wants to invest a couple of grand a month into a indie team with a couple of promising products. Unfortunately he also insists on hiring actual office space, otherwise he doesn't feel he can deal with publishers and investors. And currently I cant spare any.

But I'm kind of hoping to get a couple of products together for him to take a shot with sometime in the future, and for the moment he seems a little disappointed but happy to wait :)

Going to have to get something thats a bit more impressive than Aerial Antics and Market Value before I feel comfortable doing anything like that though.

Evak

Yeah thats me. I have invested in several game development languages, engines, tools over the years. To this date I only have one game to show for it, Asteroid Falling. Even its not complete.

The tool of my dream would be commericial quality game engine with a Scripting Langauge that uses BASIC, and imported common 3D formats. Blitz3D has been the easiest to learn and work with. Which is why I've been here for the last 3 years.

Vile blasphemy!

I'd like to disagree. Though it depends on what your
definition of artist is. Is a gameplay-designer an artist or a
programmer? Because that's really the role that makes or
breaks a game. ;)

Most of the time will be spent on media in today's AAA games.

And the general public can have those AAA games. I don't want 'em.

The lead Art Director of EA in canada gave a presentation
to some students and faculty at my school last year.
While the topic was on super modern graphics tech, one
gutsy student asked (paraphrased)



And to sum it up, the guy replied with: (paraphrased)

(He completely dodged the question!....or didn't hear properly...)

Sure the artists are important, but you have to be careful
not to let them rule, lest you adopt the mantra of EA:
"Sell them the same game year after year, but with fancier graphics. They'll eat it up just the same!"

Based on the kind of programmer I am, I say that
programmers should design games and Artists should
help, but not get in the way. ;)

[edit]
And in response to the initial post, I always want to
be a programmer. (Like it wasn't obvious!)

what's all this talk of AAA games? I'd be chuffed to bits to make a AA game or even just an A game. To be honest, anything above a C- would be wonderful.
"AAA" to me means millions of quid spent on masses and masses of content and design - not what Blitz is ever going to get used for.

FRANK - STOP - LOOK - LISTEN !!!

You must NOT dispair. Why? Because without those dreams, thoughts, ambitions, aspirations whatever you wanna call them, none of us would be able to develop.

I know exactly how you feel, I have felt like that for many years, but we also have other skills which some people would just love to have too. I have watched as your ambitions have developed into significant works - DO NOT DECRY your own work so far.

Coding, developing games, being a 3D artist is all part of a bigger journey and we are all on that journey on these forums. Some Noel and Jack and a few notable others are already well on their way. That's why this community works so well, because we help each other.

Never lose sight of your dreams Frank never! No questions, just keep them firmly in your sight, and go for them.

It is decision time, ask yourself what would make me step closer to those aspirations? When you figure that out, well then you will have a small part of the answer.

Break the whole BIG PROBLEM into smaller ones and deal with each small piece one at a time.

I too am so frustrated by the fact I can code (ok ish) and yet my modelling skills are dreadful. But there are people who can train us, people who can work with us, people who can help us develop the game we know is within us - trying to get out.

The only time you should be sad is if you let go of those dreams and aspirations and go and do something else and never come back - imagine all the time, effort, love (yes love) you have pourred into your dreams and remember that it is not wasted but it is accumulated, ready for action when the time arrives.

For now, we must both - indeed all - settle for being only part way along the journey.

Imagine what a journey it will be - and lift you head up and look at the blue sky, and keep on walking dude.

I'll meet you by the crossroads someday!

Best regards,

IPete2.

Inspiring and Motivating words, IPete2!

Game designers are artists, not necessarily graphic artists allthough many are those too. But game design when done is more of a touch and feely thing than a programming thing, and very experimental.

Many programmers and artists are technicians and not all that creative, thats usualy why good flowing gameplay is hard to achieve.

Also most games are designed by more than one person. The game designer usualy has a concept that they have to convey to the team. but more often the core part of a team develop the game and the designer pulls everything together focusing on the original idea. And play testing and tweaking to get things just right.

It's very rare that someone just sits on their own and then tells everyone what to do. But it does take a single person with vision and a deep understanding of gameplay, what makes things fun, fluid and realise a concept and honing it into a real product that appeals to the targeted audience.

Anyone can design a game, and make a clunky thing thats playable but doesnt flow. Many can make one too, but most of the hard stuff that makes something work really well comes from talent and hard earned experience.

I definately think Game designers are artists, just like actors and musicians are artists.

I dont wanna be one of these guys anymore!

Once I complete my run-of-the-mill FPS Greedy Blastards with Blitz3D. I will be devoting 200% of my time to TournamentBlitz.com's Players, Developers, Products, and Services.

There is no more use in trying to fool myself into being something that I'm not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving up on my dream, I'm just pursuing it on a different avenue.

I thought I was the only one thinking that!
By the way, great speech you gave out there, IPete2 ;)

I think indie games are hard to make as there is little financial incentive, and limited technology that can be used to harness your games with.

I think the best games to make as an indie, are games that reuse art assets and rely on simple but fun gameplay. Unfortunately these types of games aren't always the most fun to make. And when I'm spending a lot of time on something without any obvious compensation I have to enjoy what I'm doing.

The more chalenging ambitious ones are often the most fun, but also the hardest to make without some kind of regular cash flow.

I know that my work would be a LOT better if I didn't have time and financial constraints. Currently I tend to make a compromise between time, and speed and what will run on a low spec system.

Finding a middle of the road solution that isn't so ambitious that if we got a contract to finish one of our semi commercial projects. We would still be able to complete them at the same level of quality that our prototypes have.

It's a hard thing. I think Frank's biggest problems is that his project plasma is in a genre that needs very high quality visuals and immersion to stand any chance of success in a very competitive FPS market. It's really hard to produce 10 hours of gameplay in a genre that requires unique and diverse environments to hold a gamers interest for any length of time.

I keep walking into this rutt myself, plus like Red October, we feel we need a newer development platform to realise our 2 current prototype games potential, and reasonably expect to sell in any significant numbers.

Wish I knew what the answer was without copping out and making a game were simply not interested in.

Do have one simpler game in mind to use in order to learn the ropes of torque. But I think what I'm really waiting for is the Bmax module, which will hopefully knock down the few walls that blitz keeps throwing up.

It is true that my head was in the clouds with the leadership of PLASMA. But, I've have since realized, and have settle for basic multiplayer game play, graphics, and sound. Accepting this, has allowed me to get closer to completing an FPS faster than ever.

Anyway's, I gave game developing a valiant effort and I'm looking forward pursuing a different aspect of the computer gaming industry.

I disagree. I think ALL games are hard to make. That is the long and short of it...

People don't realise the sheer amount of work that goes into making even a simple puzzle clone.

Very true - and even more so in the case of one guy trying to be the designer, programmer, 3d artist,2d artist, level designer, animator, tester, marketing executive, sales director and teaboy.

He can be either an artist or a programmer. If he's an artist he will probably be able to make his game alone with $500. If he's a programmer he'll probably need $5000 to do the same.

You obviously haven been around the gamedev boards long enough, for if you have, discussions about graphics vs gameplay would have bored you. They bored me. The bottom line is this: Chopin is better music but sells less than Christina Aguilera, or however you spell her name. Just look at guys like puki who drool over graphics. Its the majority that counts, noone asks for your opinion, drew.

Ouch. Sorry man, I wasn't trying to be preachy, I didn't
mean to push any buttons.

...Draconus?

I believe this to be true. I'm discovering this as I seek out 3D Artist. Many of them are charging fees that will exceed the expenses of my tools. shucks:(

Frank, I'd like to know what sort of project you are doing and
if you are serious about it. I might be able to help you out
for a reasonable price.

drew can you send me a email. thnx

Heres a overview of the game: Greedy Blastards is a slap-stick comedic Multplayer FPS/3PS in which Contestants enter an Arena to compete against one another. The objective is to collect/steal as many coins you can and 'bank' them for points. The only loser is the one who ends the round with 0 coins.

A variety of non-lethal weapons such Spud Launcher, Grease Gun, Glue Gun, Bubble Blaster, Freeze Ray, the Zapper will be at the players disposal. The weapons will temporarily stun players causing them to fumble some or all collected coins.

Contestants can submit a real-world mugshot of themeselves in which we generate comedic representation of their head and attach it to a body in-game.

Exaggerated Movement/Gestures/Facial Expressions and a Witty Announcer is supposed to make the game funny to watch and hear verses its simple run-of-the-mill FPS gameplay.

Sounds like a neat project.

Email sent.

I also learned some Html tonight and made this little portfolio site.

http://soldiers.250free.com/portfolio/main.html

Don't laugh. It will improve once I gather up more material
and learn more about html. But opinions are nice.

Personally I'm Programmer first, artist second, but I still create models just as place holders so if any artist is watching my projects and wants to offer services then I'm all for it. It also makes it easier to get artists on board if you've got something to show them.

I think there's something to be said for to necessarily being an artist but at least having an "artistic eye". This means you can make interfaces that look half decent and also know what graphics would look good in your game. You also have to be really honest with yourself and say "that looks cr*p" and improve it.

A lot of stuf in 3d now is purely technique based, so i would say that with a minimum of effort you could start knocking out decent models. the problem is the texturing. you really need an artists eye for that stuff and you might struggle here.

its the same with making 3d humans, if you stick to the correct proportions and simplify , then there is no reason you can't make some good looking stuff.

But I would suggest that you will never be as good as a proper artist unless you invest the many hours/years of practice it needs to get 'really' good at it.

Its the same for me with programming, i just skimmed across the surface and then bounced off.

Anyone can be a president (or governor) but you really need talent and some education to be a good programmer or artist. Only very few can be good at both... but IMO everyone in 3D world should know know a bit about "the other" skill because 3D is quite tecnical art form.

I think that we should all take a step back and try to remember why we got into game creation in the first place. To create fun, but most of all original games that we would love to play ourselves. Commercial companies have become so caught up in the graphics race that they seem to leave the gameplay out of their games. Isn`t this the very reason why we became indie developers in the first place?

I recently attended a Click Team convention and I must say that dispite using a tool that is far more limiting than any Blitz product they had some pretty decent stuff up and running and in a far more finihsed state than most Blitz games I have seen. Blitz could easily outpower there flagship product Multi Media Fusion and yet I see a lot more fun games being knocked out with it. Games like Eternal Daughter could easily sell as a GBA game and plays like a SNES game.

Another popular indie game Cave Story is a fantastic product, sure the graphics aren`t stunning (although they have lots of charm) but the game is just so fun to play and I would have glady have paid for it.

What I am trying to say is that we should all just stop giving ourselves such a hard time and try to have some fun, in the end it is the love that has gone into your products that will sell them graphics are just icing on the cake.

Jason.

I wish I'd knew a bit more of coding. I know a bit, but only a bit more would have help me aquire a pair of things in life that would have solved any problems. And nope, was not to work as a programmer.

Yet though, the little I made, I enjoied it, and made me understand is a whole way of organizing and thinking for which I am not prepared even to start to learn.

But I'd love to.

Been dedicated more than 27 years(is not my age ;) ) to image creation, and can understand how much it envolves any other field. Often, it's a whole life.

Imho, the target anyway is not AAA games for Pc. That's a difficult thing to profit from, imho. These games are demanded more and more visual art complexity and quantity. Dunno where it'll go, at least in Pc field...Today teams are really huge, and small or medium companies do sink for this. Indy game developers, of one to 3 persons, shareware, indy field, are smaller boats, way more flexible. I think they're much safer, in their initially smaller market.

And these developers tend to focus on game design and on their own ideas, freely, more consistent than often the products released by loads of people and marketting pressures, bosses, etc...

Perhaps the Turbosquid advice, or/and team up for profits with some seasoned ex-pro is the key...

QuickSilva,

I agree with you. However, the artwork i visualize for my game is beyond my current art skillsets. It would take me years to produce the artwork a skilled artist could do in a month or less.

There is an invisble timeline here. I dont have years to produce the game if I want to put my game out there before someone else does. I need a artist's help.

I've spent years becoming a programmer, I need to do the same in the art department. But, if I'm to produce the game of my dreams, I need to do so now before, the dream fades away or changes.

It`s funny really, I`m an artist who wanted to get noticed in the games field so I decided to learn to program and here I am still, since staring with AMOS\Blitz on the Amiga and still have nothing to show for it. I can honestly say that I was far more productive using an Amiga than when using a PC even though I had more limitations back then, strange eh? I think that`s because I`ve been kind of forced to learn to program in much the same way as you are to learn art my original dream has faded away, so yes I agree with you make your game now or you will lose that focus. My passion for art has also taken back seat because of this and in hind sight I regret this.

Jason.

Not having this distractive 'internet' thing around can help too. ;-)

I don't thing commercial games have gotten too deep in the graphics race. My experience has been that publishers want a game done quickly and to target the largest demographic.

This means make it simple, easy to pick up and play fore anyone 8 years old and up, cut costs where possibe, make as much money as possible, and make sure it looks cool to catch peoples attention and want to play it.

The reason we have mostly crap, generic games that lack any depth, are linear and require little thought to play, is because the publisher wants games to be instantly playable for anyone at the expense of fun for the hardcore gamer. There really aren't that many 'hardcore' gamers in the scheme of things and they tend to have fairly narrow tastes and favour particular types of games.

are we hardcore gamers, trying to be developers?

I would have to say we are gamers with ambition and knowledge.

>I need to do so now before, the dream fades away or changes.

If you can't succeed then do the next best thing, help the next generation of game wannabe developers, do what halo is doing, and other community members who are producing tools to make it easier for the new commers to get in and produce something. Halo had same dreams as you and he pushed them aside realizing that no matter how many artists join him he will not be able to pull it off, so he starts writting tools and I belive he is doing some nice money with his tools.

What prevents you from doing the same? If your dreams are about to die, then help the next generation to make their come trhu and you will be part of it atleast then instead of giving up and being forgoten in this field or being remebered as dreamer that never realized what he needed to focus on and use his strenght ;)

I really can't understand this obsession you had with your strange weapon system concept that you based everything around and wanted to build gigantic project around. Nothing cool about it to rest of us except perhaps to you and you wasted so much time on it for nothing in the end, well perhaps a lesson so next time you know when the bad idea is bad idea. Nobody would play game becasuse of some cool weapon system. Forget that @#!* and forget community projects and move on to something more helpfull to community and do it this time your self ;) If you got coding skillz realize others people dreams and then maybe your dreams will come thru...

true, true
...and *some* willpower too! (very little sometimes)

Dont attack the dream. Its my dream. Noone elses.

>Dont attack the dream. Its my dream. Noone elses.

sometime the dream has to burst so you can start on a more productive dream ;) sorry to attack your dream, but rember halo's dream singularity, nothing came out of it, and if halo was fool pushing that dream for 2-3 more years in the end he would have nothing. Look at him now, he is atleast making some money and helping the community ;)

it is that dream that put me here. its a dream that put most of us here. i cannot and will not help the community, if that dream dies.

> i cannot and will not help the community, if that dream dies.

wow, so you say screw community but expect the community to help you in something that is NOt their dream, selfish of you to expect the community to realise your dream if you your self will turn them back... If you really are a good programmer write some tools, make something of value and sell that here, earn money that way, hire artists then have them make content for your game and your dream... be practical about it

Noone said screw the community. My point is, if the dream dies, my participation in any game developement will die.

Hmm, I too have a crazy dream that is driving me to learn programming. I've had this game design in my head for literally years, but have not turned this dream real yet.

Frank, do you really think there's only a certain window of opportunity?

I plan to be programming when I'm 85 years old. Is that naive? I hope not.

Sort of. I hope by then the practice of programming will be a lot more advanced than the stuff we do now.

I'm sure it will be much different by then too. Nonetheless,
whatever it's called and however you do it in the future, it's
still game-creation and it will always be my main creative output.

What I was hoping wasn't naive was the thought that I'd still
have the drive to program for that long.

Man, now you've got me thinking of the incredible things we
will be able to create with future technologies. It's exciting.

[edit] Remember, games are(or are going to be) the
ultimate art form. Games include and go beyond every
other art form humans have come up with.

Frank, i think that if you are serious about doing some 3d art, trawl the modelling forums like polycount, start with the basics and work your way up.
at least if you can find a way to make vanilla objects until you are happy with the stuff you are knocking out then hopefully that will encourage you further.
Its like anything, if you practice enough you will get to a certain standard

I went into programming because of my own dream too

As I went along from language to language looking for one that suited me I picked up the art of Pixels, and its been my constant companion ever since

Doing both the Code and the Graphics has meant that the 2 compliment each other, and are greater than the sum of their parts

I'm not that good a coder, or that good a Pixel Artist, but put the 2 together and each fills the gaps the other leaves

I have a dedicated musician, who requests no money because he likes the project so much, all I need now is a non-pixel artist

Once upon a time I had 2 of them, however both expected a share of the profits and I had to pick 1, I picked the wrong one because he was the closer friend, I still regret that choice

Now I'm still struggling to find a reasonably priced artist, and having no non-pixel talent myself I know I'll never fill that gap myself

I no longer want to be a 3D Artist. A game publisher appears to be the path im taking.

Nothin wrong with that!