Is Blitz3D going away?? :(

I have been checking back and forth here and noticed that Blitz3D has not been updated for a very long time. I am just wondering what is the status of this? Even BlitzMax has slowed down a bit.

I understand that perhaps BlitzMax is getting more attention. If that is the case... why not make Blitz3D open source? Put some rules in, have Mark approve all the enhancements, and have just one "release" of the product officially from this site. But I believe there are a lot of folks here, not me though, that are talented and that can continue improving on Blitz3D without tying up Mark too much.

If I'm talking out of my arse, I apologize. I would just hate to see Blitz3D die out.

Yep.

I tried that, won't work.

Blitz3D's development has basically ended except for fixes for show-stopper bugs that're Blitz3D's fault and not the fact that it's using an extremely old graphics API.

Because then there wouldn't be much reason to buy Blitzmax 3D module would there?

well..when I purchase Torque Game Engine with source code for engine itself, and all tools for game creation, didnt stop me to license Torque Shader Engine...I cant see why should I ignore Blitzmax3D becouse of fact that I have Blitz3D source? Blitzmax 3D will be multiplatform anyway, while Blitz3D will sit on the Windows...protecting Blitzmax3D cant be reason to kill Blitz3D and keep it closed until die..

Blitz3d is still very much alive.
Its true that BlitzMax has been detrimental to its ongoing development but I feel that it has probably reached the end of its natural development life span anyway given that its based on DirectX7.
Just because further development has stopped that doesn't somehow convert it into a dead language.
Its human nature that we always want the "newest" even though we don't use any of the new features.
It would be nice however to see some features that are DirectX7 but never got included like compressed textures etc.

Yup, and tangent space normal maps. I personally like (well it's a love/hate relationship really...) Blitz3D because I sort of know it by now - the thought of learning ANOTHER language at this point seems overwhelming... newer is not always better.

Don't Panic.

I'm not panicking, I've got my towel at the ready. :)It's complete, or as complete as it will ever be. If you need more than it has to offer then you need to start looking elsewhere.

I've just had a look at the gg.IrrB3D and it is showing amazing progress. Then you can imagine how good the actual BlitzMax 3D module will be. Even this looks good enough to me! I am yet to buy Max tho :(

If you dont know what it is you can read at the bottom. It's like Blitz3D commands with DX9 / OpenGL capabilities and shaders. Isnt that what youre looking for?

Blitz3d isn't going anywhere. In every sense.

I can only see a few things missing in B3D that are DX7 native. And in many instances could come under bug fixes.

Texture compression, some kind of alpha sorting switch for specific brushes are the two things that get in the way of real progress for me.

What I really want if an openGL equivalent in Bmax anyway. Or for DX10 to go cross platform :) since I much prefer D3D over GL.

Anyway, I think for indies who are business oriented, one of the more important things is portability and only Bmax is going to offer that to any useful degree.

Blitz3D is still the best indipendant developer 3D programming language on the market.

Whilst it's days are clearly numbered and the fact that it will be superceded is very clear, at the current time there is no better tool on the market for 3D games development in a home studio.

I know Blitz3D's days are over, but it will probably remain a very good stepping stone for those who want to progress to a lower level language, perhaps C++, C# or Java (I know Java is relatively high-level, but you get the picture).

BlitzMax does show some promise. Once complete, I think it will completely replace Blitz3D (given time).

I think that's the point of Max. I wouldn't be surprised if once the 3D module is finished and stable BRL just stop supporting and selling Blitz3D and Blitz+. Although you could hardly say they're still supporting them now.

Agreed. But that's going to be about 2 years I would guess - care to wait?

I would like to use BlitzMax, but haven't had the chance to buy it yet. I tried out the demo, but I hate 30-day trials, and I wasn't used to the syntax. I think it would be useful if someone could write a module so we could use B3D-like syntax, but have the features of BMax.

Yeh, BMax's eventual finalisation might just let the young ursurper Cobra through the door. I'm certainly interested in Cobra - I see it as more like a new version of Blitz3D than BMax. Potentially, if Cobra is good, I won't buy the 3D Mod for BMax.

puki, youre really advertising Cobra in every post you make. On codersworkshop as well as here. The mods are doing the same over there. You have a cw sig as well :P

You are a large BRL enemy! har har har

Honestly, Mark should think about Cobra a little. I am very loyal to Blitz but if Cobra is better i'll simply use it. And if the 3d module takes too much time, more likely will i use Cobra (if it even comes out before the 3d module).

Why?

As well you should. And so should anyone else. It's all an academic discussion ofcourse, because Cobra (as far as I can tell) isn't better than BlitzMAX. Not even close. Nor is it likely to be in the near future.

Its inevitable. As BRL releases newer and better things Blitz3D's userbase will decrease a little. But I doubt its going to be completely wiped away. Its a good product.

You could of course disasemble the runtime dll and get the ASM. But of course its not a very fast and practicle method. And its highly illegal I would imagine. Dont do it!

Did you notice the left column of the home page.
Theres some big names in there. And theres gaurenteed to be at least 12 users on here at ANY given point. Not to mention the number of guests.

I don't think Blitz3D will die anytime soon. Mark has stated that Max3D will be OGL & DX9. This will more then likely eliminate lower end hardware from running any game made with the 3D Module.

If you want to make casual games fast and efficiently then Blitz3D is still the tool for choice.

I still think Blitz3D is the best dev tool for me. The one thing I'd really like to see is some sort of C++ SDK so we could control it completely. I really like Torque too ... but it's just not as free form. I like BlitzMax but it's not as feature complete yet. For my needs at this point in time there's no perfect tool. It's kind of a bummer. I'm constantly torn between Torque, Blitz3D, and BlitzMax.

..dead or not, I like to play with Blitz3D..its just gooood...and if I have to do something more serious, then I'm sleeping with Torque/Torque shader engine..but as I'm mention, I just cant give up from Blitz3D, and if some C++ SDK come out for it..whoooaaa...it will be only Blitz3D and Blitz3D :)

*looks up* Huh? Did somebody say something? Sorry, I was too busy writing code in Blitz3D.

Because I want him to finish the 3D module sooner, and leave the GUI stuff alone or find any other way to finish the 3d module. I'm also "protesting" by not buying BlitzMax at all until the module is finished. Also note, i am highly doubting Cobra will be any better than Max.

I hope there will be options to use DirectX 8 or maybe even 7 in the 3d module. Im certain there will be options on which shaders you want to use and if you dont use any i dont see why really old hardware wouldnt work? I've had DX9 games work on a P3 with a gfx card of 8MB RAM, only disable all the fancy stuff so you dont get glitchy graphics which the card doesnt render.

Well it wont neccessarily "die"....but any major development on it is pretty much done. But there will be people who will still use it till the end....just like the guys who are still using 3DRAD....which has been dead years now.....

What's all this talk of using Cobra instead of BMax? Correct me if I'm wrong (I know nothing about the language), but Cobra isn't even out yet. What makes you think it's going to be available before the Max3D module? What makes you think it's going to be better than the Max3D module?... I bet it won't be, btw.

At least with BMax the core lanuage is available NOW, so that adopters can at least familiarize themselves with the language while waiting for the 3D module.

jhocking... nice one!

There's too much doom and gloom around here sometimes!

B3D is as useful as YOU make it. I have recently completed a visitor centre attraction which I could not have done any other way! So from my point of view NO it still has plenty of life yet.

I am looking forwards to BMax 3D sure, and in the meantime I am also investing some time in looking at the alternatives in the 3D game engine marketplace - this is just a sensible thing to do as I have to remain competitive. It makes good business sense to know you are aware of the best tools around.

As long as I can deliver 'gob smacking' sims and games with B3D it will be in my tool kit - make no doubt about it!

I got the new version of TerraEd last night and was musing at how similar the Torque World Editor was to it, and then I thought, yes but I'd have to learn the scripting language and C++ to get the best out of it, which I may choose to do at some stage. But I have the tools now

The biggest problem - as with any language like this - is feeding it high quality media/content which allows us to produce good or great looking results - not so much the engine itself.

IPete2.

Here's a few examples from the work we've done over the last couple of years, for the new guys around town:

I want strict added to Blitz3D.

Been working on some amazing blitz stuff that can't easily be done with anything else. I just wish it had better occlusion so you can more easily reduce the surface count in your levels. WHen you have to keep surafce count down and try for complex levels, it often holds back the quality and detail of the texturing. Particularly if you need large lightmaps.

I'd love to see better occlusion so we can easiler handle larger levels, and save some VRAM. Fortunately low end system specs are going up and slowly but surely, surface count is becoming less of a problem than it was.

that's a good one Evak... i see that as a legitimate and reasonable request...

as for me... the only thing i'd like to see in Blitz3D is addition of function pointers (or some way to OOPify my code a lil better)... and some DX9 shader facilities...

then i'd be in a position to wait another year for the 3D module...

OOpify... hahaha, can that be considered a woid???

anyways... despite my exposure to all the new stuff that's coming, i'm still doing something with Blitz3D...

hey... if Blitz3d is dead already... then just call me the living dead... oooooooooooooooooooo

ooops... sorry, i forgot halloween is already about two weeks past...


--Mike

Mmmmmm, function pointers. *slobber*

To answer the point made earlier - Cobra is expected to be easy to use - like B3D, yet with nice new features. Cobra will appeal to the next generation of "Amons", erm, I mean 'Noobs', erm I mean "Amon", erm I meant 'beginners' - people who cannot program, erm "Amon".

The lack of anisotropic filtering, which is why textures look so blurry in Blitz3D, is a major drawback. Tragically, this could be fixed with one line in the source.

hahaahahahaaaaa... puk, beeee niiice now...

getting back on track (before Amon sees this and has puk's head mounted) :) it's not just the language that endears Blitz3D... it's the flexibility and forethought that went into the .b3d file format as well...

... together, these are two very powerfull commponents of a very well suited to indie game development tool.

--Mike

Cobra gets more news and updates. Nothing more.



Whoever said he thinks its going to be better? Puki? Infidel! Guards! Cease him!



Yes i've been thinking about that. Maybe i break my promise and buy Max before the 3D module.

The file format of 3d objects will be extremely important to me as well. I mean i just want to be able to use different materials easily (including shaders?) on the same 3d object.

Just to pick up a few points.
1) It's "likely" that Cobra will be out before a BMAX 3d module, unless Mark has something up his sleeve he isn't showing us (and after the ravaging he's received in the past, I wouldn't blame him).

2) Cobra is designed as a natural progression from Blitz3d (make of that what you will), it's designed to 'evolve' in the same way turbo pascal did, so it will gain oop functionality in future (as a bolt on).

3) Please don't get into the whole Cobra is better than xxx, as none of you can really answer this. I have an opinion, but I'm biased ;)

4) Don't for a minute think I'm anti-B3d, anti-blitz whatever.. I've had 3 blitz games published, and am increadibly happy that blitz dragged me back into 'fun' programming.. Cobra is just the result of me hitting my head against roof of the blitz feature set in my last (unfinished) game.

5) I don't believe b3d is finished/dead. Even if Mark does nothing else with it, developers can still perform miracles with it. Just look at some of the scenes Filax has produced. Shaders, and fancy features are pretty neat, but as people find once they start using them seriously, they sure are not the magic bullet everyone thinks.

Anyway, nuff said... get back to coding all of ya.. there's nothing to see here.. move along ;)

cobra?

I agree with Blitztastic on the shader front. Most of blitz3D's barriers cygnus and I keep hitting aren't really next gen ones but little problems with how surfaces, occlusion, culling, alpha and some fairly simple functions don't work as well as they should.

As far as shaders go, the most useful things for me are better dynamic lighting and shadows, and taking the load off of the CPU for things like weighted vertices on boned meshes.

Since I'm primarily involves in the art and game design phase and have a pretty minor involvement in the coding, those things are the major stumbling blocks I come up against in all my projects to date.

meh...quite yer moaning - either buy into bmax + use the
damned freebie engines, jump ship to cobra, jump ship to
the dreaded darkbasic...or dive into torque, or if your feeling
real eager like - create your own cross platform engine...or
taking things even further, write your own compiler ;)

heh...anyway, its not like you can add much more to b3d,
there are some things that could be reorganised for
speedups & some things that jst need fixing...but your not
going to get shaders under dx7....

I really think the best option is to go for bmax - its
modular, so can pick n choose what you use. Its cross
platform, which will be important if you plan on selling your
work. Its quite easy to use - you dont have to worry about
cross platform issues, or system level code...sweet.
Once the 3D Engine & Gui stuff is complete & if/when the
docs gets an overhaul...i really dont see an easier, or
more powerful option..well, one that doesnt require
knowing C++ quite/very well...

hmmm...im jst blurting out trash :]
- thats my post for the year

Have you tried this?
http://blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=40848

That's cool. It would be so easy for BR to add that stuff, and they just don't want to.

For me to ever use Blitz3D again, it would take:
-texture compression
-ability to use a bank for a mesh vertex, normal, texcoord, or color array
-ability to enable/disable lights per entity

OpenGL is just so much easier. I get to use the raw vertex arrays, and can set things up however I like.

yeah, the stuff halo wants are things I'd like to see too. when your using lightmaps extensively, having every static object being lit is a real resourec hog when typicaly you only really need to light a few animated objects that move through your level.

And texture compression is my biggie, 32mb runs out real quick if your doing anything but a simple enclosed casual game with simplistic graphics. You can easily use half your vram lightmapping a fairly small level with low/medium details in. Having compressed textures should allow at least 50% savings.

we use the filter dll and it does make quite a difference in the quality :)

I'm sure we'd all love all these wonderful features added to Blitz3D - I certainly would. But why would Mark spend his time adding all these features to Blitz3D when BlitzMax is not only a far better language (function pointers, OOP, etc.), but is easily expandible? Blitz3D gives me all the features as adertised (actually more), and I'm happy with that. I agree any bugs in Blitz3D should be fixed, but adding features is a different issue.

If Blitz3D doesn't provide enough power for you, you might consider buying another product. I think (hope) BlitzMax with Max3D will provide all these features and more, but I don't expect Blitz3D to ever support many new features, not because some claim it's "dead", but because Blitz3D is Blitz3D and BlitzMax is BlitzMax.

I personally think (although I never used the 3D stuff and probably never will) that anything that DX7 supports (ie something -simple- like texture compression) should have been supported all along.

I would really like that too.

And that.

But not that. It's good at the surface level but I use data portals extensively in my code and Blitz' built in occlusion meens stuff that is shown is checked for whether it's oncreen when my portal has already handled that as part of it's integration with other sub-routines.

For instance, if i've got trees that blows in the wind and could stop a bullet, I only blow the leaves of the trees in view. If i've checked for that (via portal) I dont need Blitz then checking it's onscreen in order to draw it. I know what collision objects to test against with the same portal check without Blitz having to double check that too (which it does).

I'd like to rip out all of Blitz's draw & collision occlusion checks and revise the entitypicking commands.

Of course it's not going to happen sadly, but this is one aspect the dreaded DBP does actually do better for my style of coding - sadly. No occlussion checks and a well thought out intersectObject command.

This post was brought to you by 4am can't sleep blues.

You're crazy. It's clearly 3pm.