Creating windows?

Hi,

I am wondering if it is possible to create standalone windows (with and without borders) with BlitzMax? All the demos run fullscreen except for the OpenGL ones, but I am not sure if I can mix OGL windows with BlitzMax (or get them without a border).

Thanks,

Maarten

Sure, if you straight call the Windows API you can do that without any problems.

But there are no official commands for that if you mean that.

To create a window just with OpenGL (and without Max2D), there is a command for that (think it was bglcontext)

This is what I mean; but if I use the windows API (which I'm not familiar with) I'll lose Max2D functinality as well?

Has anybody else solved this problem?

Maarten

I believe the soon to be released GUI module addresses this particular issue.

I hope soon is Real Soon Now then :-) I need something like this quickly or switch to another environment :(

Thanks,

Maarten

@rebellc, don’t hold your breath I was told it was a month away and that was three months ago. Felt a real pratt when I had to explain to my boss that I still hadn’t started the application because I was waiting for the upgrade. Still waiting. (My mistake, won’t make it again)

Nigel; Are you basing a commercial application on a module which you know nothing about..??
What about all the inital bugs? and what if the GUI module doesn't support a gadget/widget type you have planned to use?
If it's a vital app, then I'd be sure to use a tool which I allready know something about, and know to work correctly..
my personal view/opinion, of course..

I read the forums a bit and from what I see people are enthousiastic about 3D ans Max, but Max is a bit incomplete and there are no betas/timelines for GUI and 3D for Max.

That's too bad because that makes Max less useful for serious cross-platform projects. And if my choice is waiting 3 months (if the choice is that clear anyway) because of the underlying technology I simply switch technologies. Delivery is very important.

"It all runs on the same computer" so in that case I might as well make it myself :-)

Your information is inaccurate.

It's not 3 months. If memory serves the latest estimate was "before christmas" for the GUI module, (and "not before christmas" for the 3D module) so that's at most 2 months.

Well there's a subtle, but important difference between that, and "It runs the same on all computers".

I haven't found the "before christmas" quote anywhere on the forums, hence my ignorance. Seeing is believing of course.

I *do* hope your right!

I wasn't calling you ignorant.
Indeed.

not to chime in on this already oft discussed topic, but surprisingly, especially if you knew me, i've found that i've kind of reached my brick wall on this issue myself.

and that is saying something ... so i'm going to chime in, hoping that maybe it will help get the issue noticed, if it hasn't already.

i'm a professional programmer by day, building business applications.

i hate it.

i'm a good programmer.

i'm also a long time computer gamer, and i made a commitment to myself about a year ago, that i was going to try and change my circumstances by trying to educate myself as a game programmer, and maybe try to break out and do some small indy games, in the hope that maybe it would turn into a business that i could support myself on.

at this point, over the last 12 months or so, i've "skimmed the top" on a BUNCH of technologies/languages/API's, trying to get a feel for what is out there, and trying to hone in on a combination of stuff that i thought i could be successful with.

i did _alot_ of research and prototype programming.

'C'/C++, OpenGL, Pascal, Java and I dabbled in a few off the shelf API's minimally.

BlitzMax, DarkBasic and RealBasic were some of the other technologies i had a play with.

after much deliberating, i honed in, and spent my hard earned money on BlitzMax.

some of the criteria i used in my decision :

a) cross platform
b) compiles to native with no external dependencies
c) an active, one stop shopping community of users (i actually surfed the forums quite a bit before buying the product)
d) i liked what i saw with the basic OOP language extensions
e) i liked the feel of the language, being BASIC but not too toylike

... and finally ...

f) that from the horses mouth, Mark Sibly, that the windows GUI release was imminent at the time that I made my purchase, and the 3D engine was within 6 months.

this was *posted* on the forums

http://www.blitzmax.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=1

then, insult to injury ... almost 2 months ago ...

http://www.blitzmax.com/logs/userlog.php?user=1&log=507

i am a 36 year old, professional programmer.

i would not be able to get away with this in my professional life.

i paid real money for a product that has not met my expectations, and where the company seems to have no real accountability to me.

i'm really not one to whine and complain, and my life doesn't depend on BRL releasing product, but at this point, i can't help but think that i made a bad decision in betting on BlitzMax as being the platform that i was gonna settle on for accomplishing my goals.

BlitzMax is starting to shape up as an expensive mistake for me.

And it has to be noted, that the "cost" of this mistake, for me personally, is not just the money I spent on the license.

I've got months of spare time and energy spent learning the product and writing code, only to feel like maybe its gonna have been a waste, because i've invested in a product, technology and company that isn't committed to me in a professional way.

*sigh*

Tony

What exactly is it you wouldn't have "gotten away with"? Letting an estimated release date slip because of bugs and inconsistencies? You're not the only professional programmer here, and some of us have gotten away with alot worse.

I find it hard to believe a 36 year old professional programmer, doesn't realize that the task of writting a consistent GUI module for three platforms, and tieing it into 2 underlying graphics APIs, is a task with rather high degrees of complexity and uncertainty and as such, takes a while.

I mean maybe you really are a good programmer, maybe everything you do compiles the first time, and is deployed on time and on budget. You'd be a minority.

Maybe you had unrealistic expectations? Exactly which of the sales bullets on the product page do you think is inacurate?

Here's what I don't understand about all this GUI hatemongering:

Why do you people think it's late? Is it:
a) BRL already has all the money in the world.
b) BRL have a personal grudge against you.
c) BRL think that the GUI module, in its current state wouldn't meet your expectations, because it's not finished yet.

I mean after all the @#!* they took for BlitzPlus and all the @#!* they took for the "Mac version first" for BlitzMAX - I'm surprised they even give a @#!* at all.

Cheer up RktMan (Tony)..
This is just the way Mark Sibly and BRL work.
They may not be the best to keep ETA's (which is why they are called "estimated"),
but in return you'll get a rock solid product.
As far as I've experienced over the time I've been here, Mark takes much pride in his work,
and will rather hold back a project "indefinitely" until he sees it fit for release, than release a buggy product to the public..
It might seem "unfair" and/or "a bad business decision", but you'll most likely be more satisfied with it this way, in the long run.

@FlameDuck

blowing an ETA _by months_, in my world, would be a *real* problem .

as a professional programmer, i understand full well the difficulties of implementing complex software.

but as a professional programmer, i also understand full well that it is my #1 priority, to make sure that i understand, and can properly estimate that complexity.

it is that skill, estimating and executing, not writing the code, that seperates professional programmers, contrary to popular belief.

within the context of any business i've ever done work for, if you give an estimate, then you'd better be able to hit it pretty close to your numbers.

this is because the business is going to take your *professional* experience and estimate, and develop their own plans around what you have said you can deliver.

it is common, sensible, and realistic.

it is generally far more damaging to a company to have the development team blow their timeframes than it is to give them realistic ones that they may not like.

and i'm quite sure that getting projects done basically on time, is NOT a minority accomplishment.

not anywhere i've worked for the last 14 years or so.

i think this is a common misconception and myth.

people who can write a little code and think they are kinda smart, go off half @#!*ed because they think they are professional programmers.

truth is, many dipsticks with a little logic and some time on their hands can write code and make things happen.

what seperates those who can do it as a business, and those who can't, are the ones that can do what is _really_ hard about professional programming, which is to provide useable estimates and to get the project to 100% and deliver it.

so i'll say it one more time, and with feeling, *professional* programming _isn't_ about solving hard problems, it is about executing a software plan.

_that_ is what companies and consumers pay for.

i find it fascinating, an attitude like yours.

supporting BRL in their effort is one thing.

but in _what_ other trade (which software development is just that, a trade) would a tradesman get away with not doing what they said they could do in an estimate, within reason ?

and it isn't hatemongering.

it isn't personal.

i'm relatively new around here, i made a choice as a consumer, i payed a good chunk of money because of what i thought i was going to get, and it isn't panning out.

i don't hate BRL, but i think they've made some mistakes in terms of posting to the forums about what is going on with the product and that has mislead me.

and to your question about "why do people think it's late ?"

i posted (2) freakin' links to "why i think it is late" ...

right from the dude who owns the company.

if he _hadn't_ posted that information, then i quite likely would have made a different decision.

why is that so hard for you to understand ?

@LarsG

i've come to understand that this is how "BRL works".

i use a product from x-plane.com that has one guy who develops the software.

there are many paralells to BRL, because the software is of good quality but the person who develops it is a little quirky and basically does what he wants to do so you don't always know what you are gonna get.

in that context, i can live with that, and i've been a paying customer of that software, quirks and all, for 7 or 8 years now.

and i'm sure you are right, at some point, BRL will get things moved along.

but here again, i am starting to get a little discouraged, because i feel like i gave BRL a vote of confidence with my dollars, and that i hedged my bet against having the other features in the time frames specified, and my confidence is shaken.

and then in addition, when people rightfully post to the forums, asking the questions about what is going on, you get people like FlameDuck, who want to try to make those people seem like they are idiots who "just don't get it" or who have no basis for thier issues.

and so, i wanted to post, to say my piece, and to give some context, from my view of the world ...

Tony

What world is that then? Do you develop satelite software for NASA? I happen to know rather matter-of-factly that Microsoft/Novovision and IBM regularly miss their estimates, as do some of the larger suppliers of banking software in this country - many who still run on unsupported software, namely the MS Java VM due to Microsoft being as of this writing 2 years over their estimate.

Any business that has such a rigid business plan, and doesn't have a back-up plan are:

a) Not going to hang their hopes on 80 dollar software and the word of some guy from New Zealand posting on the Internet, or
b) Not going to be in business for long.

I think you're confusing Programming with Project Management. It is the responsability of the programer to implement the system. It is the responsability of the project manager to ensure it happens on time.

It has absolutely nothing to do with supporting BRL. You are simply flat out wrong.

All of them. If you're not contractually obligated (which BRL isn't - to my knowledge) to deliver software on a given date, you can get away with murder. How long have we been waiting for Duke Nuke'em Forever? When did you last buy a used car that was actually road worthy? When have you ever had some work done to your house by a contractor and not been ripped off?

Which is exactly why they don't post more often than they do, and whould probably post even less, if they thought they could get away with it.

So it seems working for BRL, is a lose-lose situation. Be silent and get yelled at, talk and be yelled at.

No you didn't. You posted 2 links to Marks worklog - he doesn't speak for you.

@FlameDuck

i don't develop software for nasa. i develop software for people who pay the bills based on the software i produce.

while there _are_ plenty of examples of software delays to be found in many software companies, i'm still quite sure that it isn't the norm, and that a large majority of software projects undertaken within businesses are executed according to a plan.

and as i recall, the MS JVM is a big mess because they got their butt handed to them in court over the use of java technology in their product.

and as to your point about a "rigid" business plan ?

businesses that i have worked for hire me in part because i am expected to be able to do my job within the context of a larger business plan.

this isn't "rigid". if a business fails to execute on its plans, it will fail.

so i would argue that _you_ have it backwards. businesses that _don't_ have a rigid plan will fail.

and i'm not "hanging" on an $80 piece of software from "some guy in New Zealand" ... but i don't see your point.

i purchased software, in part, because the owner of the company that produces the software made public statements about features and timeframes on their own website.

further, the same website _seems_ to be the mechanism for communicating to the customer base about features and events by the company.

as far as programming vs. project management.

i don't know where you've worked professionally, if at all, but i've never seen a project manager put a schedule out to the business without having all programmers on the project come together and provide estimates for the areas they will be working on.

project managers DONT estimate, and anyone who has ever actually worked on a real project of any size would know that.

so ... i'm not wrong in any particular way about that.

and your analogies about software contracts is just non-sensical, so i don't really know how to respond ?

Duke Nukem ? road worthy car ? wth are you talking about ?

and as far as BRL posting, i don't think it is a lose-lose.

if they had said NOTHING about 3D or the GUI stuff in any offical postings or marketing, i'd be none the wiser.

but they did.

and lastly, no, mark doesn't speak for me, and you completely missed my point.

my point was that the _owner_ of the company has posted on two seperate occassions about the status of these features.

and i pointed out that that to me is "reason enough" for feeling like the features are "late".

if they said it not at all, then there is nothing to complain about and as i said, i wouldn't have had information in front of me that was misleading and suspect.

if they said it once, and then don't deliver, there is something to complain about, if you do that same thing A SECOND TIME ... one really has to take notice.

take the last word if you need it ... i'm done.

I've never known BRL to be on schedule with an estimated release timeframe. This is much, MUCH more than the second time.