BRL Communication

I would like to see BRL communicate with their user base more in regards to the product development cycle.

I have been waiting for the bmax gui since the time that I purchased the product (upon release) and all I see when I check back everday is "its coming." The coming soon approach is more frustraiting than anything. This could easily be fixed by communication.

Would it be too difficult to post a weekly or bi-weekly development process of bmax?

I agree.
however in IMO, Forget the d*mn gui. Release the bug fixes.. my project has nearly come to a screeching halt!

I don't think it would be difficult. But it would be useless as well as software development is an unpredictionable thing.

Because of its multi OS and multi API relations problems theoretically can rise from anywhere. This is what seem to have happened, at least from what I understood from Mark's second worklog.

I agree with GW--fixes before features. Mind you, BRL--I'm not complaining! Seriously, take whatever time you need to iron out bugs and whatnot!

Im not talking about just the gui, I am saying in general it would be nice to know the regular progress of BRL in the development of bmax.

I agree about communication :) I'm waiting for the 3D engine :) I hope a kick ass engine :)

Although I do not want a buggy GUI, I do wish they would hurry up with it as I need it BAD, hehe.

From what I can tell from Mark's latest worklog, there could be a chance that a very major inner reworking of Max has been done - so that complicates matters a bit rather than just 'waiting to solve GUI bugs'... it's quite possible that the GUI won't function without the Max core upgrade and it's quite possible that the core upgrade is suffering problems of it's own.

And there's every chance that Mark has gone off on a tangent and done something else major to the core (like, automated FlushMem;) that causes teething problems of it's own ;]

So, I can understand the wait. But... you know... Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Can we have it now? Christmas sucks - now now now!!!

I would suggest that Mark and the others should introduce some progress bars like Lenn plus livestream pictures to get the actual moods. All is shown and updated on the website. Hey and also i would like to see where they are, if are they are thristy, sleepy, their heartbeats when finding/fixing bugs, if they are scratching themselves and so on. Aren't they celebrities?! Then there should be some feedback system where i could rate their action too. Green light: You're doing fine, red light: Stop this crap! ... ;O)


Greetings,

taumel

This is why watching too much "reality TV" is bad for you.

Even something off topic would be cool from BRL, remember...even prisoners get 1hour a day to exercise! :)

They're not celebrities. Where's the paparazzi?

I would like some NZ freecall lines to be set up to phone in 'BRL rocks atm' and 'BRL sucks atm' votes.

I don't have a TV...but i do have a radio and a daily newspaper. ;O)


Greetings,

taumel

If the GUI module takes this long, I wonder how long the 3d module will take. Perhaps it's best for me to look at other development tools...

The GUI module contains a lot of platform specific code, where as, the 3D module won't (not nearly as much, at least). This should mean that development of the 3D mod shouldn't be quite as convoluted (not to mention the fact that the IDE was developed alongside the GUI mod).

All, IMHO, of course.

This topic was speaking about communication, not development time. So to stay on topic, I would agree. Communication here is lacking. It would seem they consider the users desire for news, as an annoyance, it would also seem, they generally ignore the problem. ( genrerally )

They are nice folks, and do pop in from time to time. to try to put out the "when, what" fires. Blitzsupport mostly , but that doesnt mean they have been communicating as well as they should be considering the large userbase.

Once bitten, twice shy? Considering all the aggravation they've had to deal with it a surprise they even post anywhere at all.

Path of least resistance? If all you ever got for releaseing updates, was stupid remarks from whining childish hatemongers, you'd stop responding soon too.

I don't think I would stop responding to people who pay my bills, no.

I am not doing your usual flame or critictising their choice not to be involved.

Instead I suggest that Developer Worklogs are available from the main site and updated at least twice a week, even if it says "Scratched left Buttock. Had a beer with Simon".

TGC have developer diaries which are always appreciated by their community from what I can see. It keeps the masses quite calm actually. The old days are long gone.

Communication has to improve, I think anyone who has been a serious developer can understand that time is precious, but more and more we are seeing people jump to other tools.

I do not think the communication issue would be so bad if BMAX was out a couple years ago, brand loyalty only goes so far. People like to see upgrades and updates.

Hell give us another demo. No screens, no movie... demo

i look at it like this......the less time the BRL people are spending responding to users questions and giving updates, the more time they are spending developing the language and its modules.

..

Communication isn't the problem. Mark communicates with the community, the community asks 1000 questions, Mark spends time answering those, community asks 1000 more questions, and so on. This is all time he COULD be spending writing code.

Releases are the problem. More of them would be good.

You dont get the point of the topic.

Your saying. give me more fixes now! When its completely
understandable that BRL cannot snap their fingers and make
it all better.. What they can do with little effort is
communicate better.

The lack of active and consistent communication is a
choice, whereas fixing bugs is not, they are limited by
ability and time. Worklogs are updated , but again they
arent very frequent, and dont give serious developers the
infomration they really need to stay put and wait..


Alot of users who say " dont talk to us.. just keep
working" have no urgent need or interest in using bmax
in a serious project. Those who do, are now pressured
to wait and see, or move on to somthing else.. and thats
where communication is really needed.

You can argue that they dont have time to answer all the
questions.. and agian.. the topic was not suggesting that
at all. Only communication , wich could be in the form of
announcements or a news update here and there. Demos of
progress, or a number of things that dont require
individual user attention.

Okay okay, defend BRL all you want,
but this is getting ridiculous.

Perhaps I we can use Blitzmax with 3D
and GUI somewhere in 2008.
Starting to believe Bmax was a bad
investment.

I prefer to think of myself as a *paying* whining childish hatemonger, if you don't mind ;-)

Anyway, welcome to the real world on this one. If you run a business, or in any way sell a product or a service, you're going to have to deal with those whining childish hatemongers because they're paying your bills.



If you mean time investment, I have to agree. I can't really knock it for £50, but I am starting to wonder if the amount of time I've invested in learning it's idiosyncracies have been in any way well-spent. I've not been in the Blitz community as long as some, but I can't recall in the 3-4 years I've been blitzing ever noticing a greater sense of despondency in the community. Like storm clouds gathering.

No, see, that's what I'm saying. They can't do it with little effort. Mark can't communicate anything without being pulled under the waves by a feeding frenzy of questions and, a few days later, requests for more communication.

I swear that Mark could post every hour and people would be bitching every 30 minutes about the lack of updates.

That's Simon's job. Mark's job is to write code.

The topic is BRL communication. You're the one making this all about Mark. I doubt anyone who wants more communication really cares whether it's Mark, Simon A, Simon H or James that is doing the communicating.

So, how far off is the GUI? When, when, when? Christmas sucks! Now now now!

RifRaf is right on.

I am personally using bmax to develop software for my business. I have asked here in the forums and through email about certain developments of bmax and I get the "it will be done when its done" or coming soon type of answer.

It would be much easier from a serious developers standpoint to know when his tools will be available to him. This way the developer can make executive decisions about software developments. I thought I was going to release a product September 1st.... now I do not know when it is going to be released because I do not know when the gui is going to be released. I continue to lose money every day and it would pacify me (and a lot of others) to know EXACTLY what types of progress are being made on a somewhat regular basis.

Mark's last worklog was 9-27-2005. The worklog before that was 5-16-2005. The BlitzNEWS Issue 17 hasn't changed in seemingly forever. This to me is unacceptable communication to a userbase that is very viable, dedicated, and tightly woven into blitz products.

That is the regular way as Mark prefers bugfree stable software above release date like other not further named companies that have thrown out bugged stuff that needed more than 18 months of patching before they were stable enough and ran on 70% of all systems ...

RifRaf and Lucid are dead on!

I come here every day with hope in my eyes that someone from BRL has posted something, something......

Every day it gets a bit depressing... I bought blitzmax 3 months prior to the (announced) release of the GUI. Figured I would learn it and plan for the GUI release (and then work towards the 3D release, which is what I am really waiting for). The GUI hasn't been released many months later. This really doesn't bother me, but it does bother me that when people start to ask questions and start to turn up the heat that BRL simply starts to lock/delete threads..

The simple fact is that we are all waiting to buy this. Some are waiting with projects on the heating pad (me being one). True, I wont sit around and wait forever, but I do have patience. The only thing that tries my patience is constant defeat/failure/depression. Coming here every day for the past 5 months before marks previous worklog was getting depressing, and a clear waste of my time...

Although typing this text is probably a waste of my time as well. It seems that threads like these have started in the past as well (I remember being part of a 'lack of communication' thread in the past as well), and nothing was done about it then. They will continue to say "when it's done", and some will continue to wait.

A simple "hey this is what's going on" only takes a few min to write. A weekly or biweekly one wouldn't be asking too much. Hell, I take a few min a week to summerize my weekly doings at work and I don't think it's asking to much, and my superiors are happy knowing that I am still alive and that progress is going good.

I wouldn't presume too much on the behalf of others. Maybe it's the other way around, except ofcourse they appreciate that doing, is more important than saying - particularly since their professional project hangs in the balance.

Well that's pretty much the way the world turns, isn't it? If you had a professional .Net project that had gotten out of hand, and needed to be refactored, your options would be: "Do it manually", "Wait for Microsoft to update Visual Studio", "Use a third party solution". Microsoft telling you that refactoring might be part of VS 2007 isn't going to help with the problem now.

Believe what you want.

Yeah? How many bills do you reckon 80 bucks pay? About @#!* all.

It's inevitable once you get enough users. You can't please everyone all the time, thus deductive logic dictates that as the size of all users grow, so does the subset dissatisfied users. They are however a minority - very vocal, but a minority none the less.

You'll notice that despite all the vieled threats to leave or switch platform, few actually do.

It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

You should not make executive decisions about unknown quantities.

Why? It won't make you somehow lose less money. A pig does not grow fatter from being weighed often.

And almost without exception, every day they do. They might not post exactly what you want, but they do post, and do so often. Mark Sibly has more than 3 times as many posts as you, twice as many code archive submissions and an infinite ammount of worklogs more.

Well that's one interesting difference between your superiors and BRLs whining, childish hatemongers. You say you've been here long enough to remember the last time this issue popped up? I've been here long enough to remember when BRL where very forthcoming with information. I can even remember one time when Claire posted that Mark was resting on her couch because he'd spent the last 3 days writting the DirectPlay bit for BlitzBasic. Ever wonder why Claire stopped posting informal private stories like that? Ever wonder why BRL stopped thinking an informed userbase was a good idea? I'll tell you why.

Mark once made the mistake of mentioning that he had planned a DX9 update for Blitz3D (you can still see the worklog for it). As you're probably aware, plans changed and everyone was @#!*ed off. Mark had broken his promise, they whined. You see becuase in the rampant gang mentality that seems to be so prevailent here, people are not allowed to change their minds. If you say something, even as a remark, you'd better be prepared to follow through on it, or else.

Want to know the real scary part? The DX9 story isn't even unique, you could probably quite litterally give 100 examples of this.

Sow the wind, and you shall reap the whirlwind. Better not to sow anything at all.

To paraphrase two others, Mikkel is right dead on!

Although I don't remember Claire, I do remember the days when Mark's worklogs seemed to be a weekly (if not sub-daily) event. They were very in depth, informative and entertaining to read. It's hardly a surprise when he posts a number of things he's mulling over/deciding on/contemplating and people start screaming a month down the track that that hasn't happenned, that he stops posting.

And ... anyone who's been here more than around 6 months should have learnt by now not to make business decisions based on BRL =]

You dont have a clue do you? Here is a case study for you, one among many: http://www.blitzbasic.com/Community/posts.php?topic=51868

I would have waited for the GUI lib if I wasn't kept in the dark for weeks and weeks at a time. I was kept in the dark so I went and made my own and now have absolutely no need to give them money - because they kept me in the dark.

I think thats a very common thing.

Finally flameduck, who elected you the great arse kisser of BRL?

I understand Mark is busy, I know Mark is busy, I respect people's decisions... but what I don't understand is people who believe they can speak on behalf of others.

* BRL should hire a PR guy to maintain the website, properly.
* BRL should have a plan
* BRL has responsibility towards their community

I would like to add that BRL needs to do better job on this site and make it more like garagegames. plans, better screenshots galleries, team/project building, better profiles for users with more information that user can fill. All those features would be very good for this community.

Well, much as I like to hear how things are progressing, and as eager as I may be for the GUI module, there are a few things I feel need to be taken into consideration:

* Blitz Products are not very expensive.
* Blitz Products are generally very stable and more than capable. (Max is very ambitious in many respects and needs time to get it right)
* I've made more money using Blitz products from one development, than I have paid for Blitz2D/3D/Plus & Max combined.
* Blitz Programming is fun!

In many ways I feel we owe Mark & Blitz research a bit more respect and appreciation than is currently reflected in much of the community.

But there must be balance. I abhor the kind of behaviour that immediately chimes in "I AGREE XYZ" - it adds nothing to a thread and reminds me of a gang of children having a meeting in a shed about the state of something they have no power over :)

I would like to see more information, not more promises and I think this is the key.

I think Mark and company have more than enough respect from the majority, it is only the vocal minority which tends to spoil things as usual. However there is no smoke without fire.

Currently BR's behaviour is very black and white: it's either post or don't post at all.

I would just like to see more information about products I am interested in purchasing, as opposed to grandoise promises.

I think it is a given that all here do support BR in one way or another.

Well, on the original point made by Lucid, (since this thread - like so many others seems to veer off topic quite regularly), I completely agree. I am relatively new to BRL, and the communication point is probably my biggest gripe. I completely understand that releases take longer than expected, and unforseen issues can arise at any point, I just feel that it would be nice to know about them. It seems that many people like me log on regularly to see what news there is on updates only to see nothing has been added.

All I would want would be a single paragraph update, say once a week, saying how things had gone that week and letting me know if anything had arisen that would put the release date back at all. At least that way I would know, rather than continually logging on the off chance and being disappointed.

I guess this is even more important when new updates are close, as people are expecting something to happen imminently, but I think it would be very useful anyway.

I understand that this may be viewed as a bit of a double edged sword, as there will no doubt be people that complain if an update comes out saying that there is likely to be a delay because of... But surely these same people are likely to complain about a delay anyway. I for one would be much happier feeling like I was being kept in the loop on issues with the product.

The bottom line is it seems that the vast majority of people really like the BRL products, and want to be involved in their future (you only have to look at how active the forum is to see that), and involving them more in the development process, with a small regular update can only be a good thing - IMHO

True. But balance is about weighing things up. It is about asking yourself what is for and against BRL and its' products.

Nobody is saying that news and chat is BRL's strong point. I agree that more regular communication would do their image a power of good.

But considering they do have a lot of other strong points, a balanced approach would suggest that we avoid 'making a mountain out of a molehill'.

If you take a plain sheet of white paper and put a small dot in the centre and ask people what they see, they'll usually say 'A black dot', whereas in reality, there is a big sheet of white paper with a small black dot on it.

The point is, it's easy to pick on imperfections, but it's better to be appreciated for our strengths. In my long experience BRL have behaved more than fairly, and I have confidence that things will turn out well in the end.

You're right. Although I don't see how that helps your arguement. The negative vibe is going, already from the second post. You can't blame BRL for not commenting on a thread that's already stacked against them, nor for not giving in to your poor attempt at a primadonna-like ultimatum.

I fail to see your point. If your large commercial project was being detained because of something you could do in less than a week, I don't see why you would want to wait in the first place.

Additionally it's a very grandiose assertation that you would have done such and such under this and that circumstanes. It so nice when you aren't actually challenged on it, because it's an entirely fictional setting.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. If it's accurate, I think that's a good thing. The more people develop rigid cross platform system friendly GUI's the better. Not everyone subscribe to the psuedo communist idea that one size fits all occasions infallibly. The more competition the better is how I see it.

How do you mean? Oh I get it, because I disagree with your point of view, it must be because I'm kissing someone elses arse. That's a brilliant argument right there, if I ever saw it.

Marks last worklog is what? Three weeks old? What good would it do, what value could it possibly have, and in what way would it assist your project in moving forward if Mark posted from now on, until release?

Could you give an example of what such an update might contain? A week really isn't that long, considering you're only two full-time employees working on it. I imagine most of the posts would be like:

"This week we worked on some of the DirectX bugs you reported. Since DirectX is a horrible API, which seems to fail at random, for obscure and arcane purposes know only to the DirectX wizards at Microsoft (who've stopped answering mail and returning phone calls) it might take longer than expected. All release dates should be considered pushed back another month."

or maybe:

"This week was spent trying to figure out why users where reporting DrawText was killing their framerate. After much head scratching we discovered that it was a flaw inherent in certain nVidia drivers. We've sent off a report to nVidia, who are going to ignore us, because we aren't EA."

In short: Information that doesn't nessecarilly contribute in a meaningful way to the advancement of my project.

Actually Flameduck I would find posts that told me a release date was going back a month useful. And if you feel these things not useful to you then you could either not read them, or chalk the 20 seconds it took you to read down to experience.

My personal view is still that I agree with Lucid's original point and would like to see regular communication updates.

Why? It has no effect on the actual release date. Estimates for large IT projects (like BlitzMAX) are always going to be wrong. If Frederick P. Brooks can't do it, what chance does the rest of us have?

Incidently, you forgot to include your own example of what you would expect (content wise) from such a regular communication update.

I wouldn't mind a 'done', 'ToDo' and 'todo if possible' list
with an estimate attached to the bottom.
I'm guessing these lists already exist in some form already.
It won't stop people getting upset if the timescales are too long for their needs or their requested feature/fix isn't on the list.

Poor Mark! It can't be fun to read this post. I'll hope he skip it... *lol* but wouldn't it be best if Mark wrote a very small worklog, let us say - twice a month?!? every second Friday?!? or every Friday if possible (10 - 20 lines, max 10 minutes of his time)

Then we all have something to look forward to before the weekend... :)))

I think that would be a really good idea. Ofcourse things that are "done" should just be released already.

Ofcourse BRL might use a timeboxed process (like SCRUM or XP) where a Gantt chart (or similar time based reference) doesn't make much sense, but in that case, a backlog of what "needs to be done" might still be useful.

Without a doubt, although they may not be meaningful in their current form to anyone outside of BRL.

Although I'm still not entirely clear on why people need to know, and in which ways such knowledge would benefit the advancement of their respective projects.

I think that's clearly a matter of preference. I prefer more in-depth worklogs, less often, even if they are mostly interesting from an academic, rather than a productive point of view.

Progress should be measured in working software.

Well said that man.

In many ways I feel Mark & Blitz research owe the community much more respect and appreciation than is currently reflected.

Shown in the form of more consistent and frequent communication.

Mark owes you a working product. Anything else you think you are owed is fantasy.

Fantasy? So you dont think anyone here who has Bought B3D, Bplus, now Bmax. That has contributed to bug fixes , helped populate the code archives so that users have a well of blitz code to get them going, users who have filled the galleries, and toolbox sections of these forums. And done so over the years. Deserve communication from BRL? thats a pretty bold thing to say to everyone. Nobody here is talking about legal boundaries.
Thats another topic if you want to discuss it.

Two threads above this one.

RifRaf

Bottom line is that Mark owes you what you purchased. Anything else is based on BRL's choices and generosity.

you can reread this part if you like.


You clearly miss everyones point. It doesnt matter if its
generosity, commitment or anything else. Its what people
want and they are saying so here. You dont have to agree
with what they want. and nobody can tell them they dont
deserve it anymore that i can say you deserve a kick in
the butt.

Well you can say so, but it has no bearing on the truth.
wich is most users here want more communication.

You can 'want' all day long. Enjoy.

Bottom line, Take customer out of Poor Customer Service and you are left with Poor Service.... which is why the customer leaves in the first place.

Hmmm. Respect is earned, not bought.

Only if you want to run your business like the mafia !


but you can reread this is you like


seems like a fair amount of "earning" to me

Right, but people aren't talking about customer service. They aren't saying they don't get responses to support issues or lost BUIDs. They're saying they want more status reports. Not the same thing.

So take whatever Hallmark card you pulled that off of and mail it to a relevant thread.

Customer service is a relative term, and yes its decided
by the customer, per customer if its good or not. Fact of
business, you clearly dont run one. Well.. you clearly
dont run a successfull one.

Ignoring mass costomer requests for the information, and
communication?

Many would see that as poor cusomter service.. and guess
what. if majority of customers beleive its poor, then it
is poor.

With your logic..
As cusomters are buying other products.. the owner of the
company they just left has nothing to worry about. because
hey! he says his service is good.

Customer service can pertain to "keeping the customers
happy" wich is clearly very broad

And with your logic, whatever the customer says must be how it goes. Otherwise the company is giving poor customer service.

No.

The customer isn't always right. He just thinks he is.

Reasonable needs and requests from a customer should be
entertained .. yes that much is correct.



Warren if you ever open a store or business please put that slogan above the entrance!

WarrenM, you obviously will never succeed running a business (for long).

Hey, you guys would fail as well. Every time the customer asked for something, he'd get it. He has to right? Otherwise it's poor customer service and you're bankrupt.

Well this has gone a bit off topic, so ill close my
involvement with a final statement.

People want more frequent communication, I for one dont
think its asking too much.. Hopefully BRL will accomodate
them somehow, in a way that is not a large burden to the
staff here.

I believe you're right. I don't believe anyone has said that. So I will say it now. I have outstanding bug reports stretching back to well over two years ago, many of which have received not a single comment from anyone at BRL. Some of which have even been filed away in the BugBin where less people will spot them. Some are very serious, some are not very serious.

Sometimes bugs can't be found. Sometimes they can't be fixed. Sometimes they're out of your hands. Perhaps you and I have differing opinions on whether or not a paying customer is even entitled to a response. Most paying customers will expect one though, and they get less likely to become paying customers once more when they don't get one.

I hope the lack of communication to such a degree of nothingness does not indicate that BRL are in a right mess of cross-platformity muddle that they are desperately trying to untangle.
Maybe BRL finally bit off more than they could chew trying to be all things on all platforms.
Its standard practise when things go very wrong to say as little as possible.

I haven't bought BlitzMax yet as it doesn't have what I need .I'm not holding my breath for when/if it does.

More communication would be nice. Not vital though. I wouldn't buy a product based on what updates it will receive. Obviously this might influence you towards buying it. BUt, unfortunetly things like this do alter your state of mind towards buying a product.

I'm not getting MAX because of what others have said about it. Other people i have known on here and IRC for a while have persuaded me not too, not directly though. ANyway, far from the point of this thread.

I'm used to not hearing very much from BRL, so it doesn't bother me. However, it would be nice to know if blitz3d would be getting DXTC or stencil shadows, as members of the blitz community have already produced these effects. That type of lack of communication is very annoying. A simple YES or NO would be very much appreciated.

Let's see who gives mark a headache THIS year? Going to try to make sure it's not me again. Though I do agree that we need more communication.

Really? Case in point: Any mayor corporation ever. Sony, Microsoft, EA, name anything. They don't tell you anything, much less anything you might want to know. What they do instead is lie through their teeth, hypeing the next product (Killzone, Halo2, Madden'06) well beyond actual values. And there is a significant difference between useful information, and hyped up press statements. Personally I'm glad BRL respects us enough to not hire a spindoctor to lie to us.

Surely that depends on what measuring stick is used?

No it's not. The individual customer is insignificant - his contribution, regardless of size or importance is always going to be dwarfed by the contributions of everyone else.

Maybe, but in that case it's not about the individual customers. It's always about keeping the most customers happy at any given time.

As for who is able to run successful businesses or not, there's a sure way to settle that one.

Well, i said that i was through with this. but since Flameduck wants to quote me. ill reply to that.

I clearly stated my reference to customer support pertaining to the "majority" as even you quoted above.
and i also used the description "mass costomer requests"


My reference to "per customer" clearly refers to each persons ability to decide if they are receiving poor customer service. and if they believe its poor then it is poor for them. period.

Also this is not Microsoft.. or EA.. blah blah..
You ask their customers and im sure there will be many unsatisfied.. so why is BRL different.? they arent. but the customer base is. BRL can loose a large percentage of cusomters because of "costomer support" wheras Microsoft and EA . and any other superentity you can name, are large enough to get away with it, to a very large degree.

You cannot seem to make any points of your own, instead make quote after quote, spitting out the opposite of the person you are quoting, and misinterpreting simple facts. or worse using cliches like


I would like to see a post from you that shows your point of view without first springboarding from someone elses.

For the life of me I couldn't imagine what FlameDuck was refering to so I looked at the Alpha 3d demo post and ...sure enough people were saying some really bad things ,

Here's a collection:


Terrible ungrateful little whingers !! I

Have you read the threads regarding the 3D module since then? Yeah, everything is love and roses when he posts an update. 12 hours later it's back to hatin'.

Well, in this thread Flameduck and warren are simply trying to tell everyone that they (everyone) is wrong for thinking the way they do. This is obviously an interesting discussion, and may or may not point to the majority of the users.

Simply point is that the view of your customer is important, especially in such a small userbase (compared to M$, Sony, etc).

Is the customer always right? Yes, they are! Does that mean they should always get what they want? No, a customer can be without rhyme or reason in their requests sometimes, and there are simply some things you cannot provide a customer who will never be happy. Does that mean you shouldn't communicate with your customer? Well, communication in any business is the key, take that out and you might as well plan on shutting the doors.

If M$ had the userbase that BRL had, or lets say 3d canvas has, M$ would fail in their current state. The only reason they can get away with the way they operate is because millions and millions depend on their products. The company I work for couldn't afford to dump M$ products and go linux, or unix if we needed to. It would kill us. BRL doesn't have that luxery of monopoly, they need their users to want/need their products. So telling people that they shouldn't want more from BMax, or ask for more, or rely on product releases is clearly an incorrect view (flameduck, and warren).

There will always be hecklers in any community, there is no way around that. Some people can never be pleased regardless of what you do. But don't let those few speak for the rest, and dont let them discourage you. Even a heckler has a soft spot (usually found by another heckler).

With the current state of BRL having fewer updates accross the board, it would be in there best interest to keep a good line of communication with the userbase. The communication doesn't have to be two-way, all they have to do is keep people calm. Pushing back a deadline or promise isn't bad when it is expected. I will often call a customer of mine and inform them I will be running late 20-30 min before I am expected to arive. I can't tell you how much they appreciate that little extra even if I didn't say much on the subject. If I were to just arrive late (say 20-60 min) without a communication preparing them, I doubt they would be my customer for long.

BRL can keep their mouth shut about everything as some users are saying. Or they can communicate on a regular basis, true they might get a little bit of heat based on some things they say but they need to let it roll off. If they cut off communication and release the GUI lib a year from now, I doubt there will be many left to buy it. If they gave an update here or there, a year might be doable. They would still have less users, but at least the ones left are 'in the loop' and understanding. This is worse case sinerio mind you, but the concept behind it is the same.

Very well put Dark Half.

Yes, but that customer doesn't call you back in 10 minutes (and every 10 minutes after that) asking for another status update.

That is because the customer KNOWS what is going on, hence proper communication.

Come on Warren this is so exaggerated.

It's so understandable that from a users point of view you would like to be informed what's going on in development and that you get feedback to questions or bug reports you do. Without curiosity you would still sit in your cave man. At least if you dared to wonder what's out of the sea... ;O)

I also don't see the point that writing worklogs is costing so much time. Correct me but a worklog is not a discussion, it's a monolog.

Also a userbase is important for a product like a programming language as when you're investigating if you wanna buy/use the product you also watch out if there is a userbase who could help you out if there are any problems. So it's kind of a symbiosis between users and BRL. The better this works the better for both sides.

BRL is lacking a little in communication to it's userbase but on the other hand i would say they've improved as there were two worklog entries in the last month! :O) By the way i like the way the autor of irrlicht handles this...briefly but you know the direction.


Greetings,

taumel

Spindoctor or not, you will note then that M$, Sony, and EA are in fact keeping their customers informed on a regular basis. Their market analists and business consultants are obviously doing their jobs. People may not be happy with the end result not being what they were told, but at least the users (customers) can plan on buying little Johnny the next killzone for Christmas or whatever. At least others can plan their lives accordingly and simply modify the schedules from there on out.

I am not saying lieing about a product is good, but based on the topic of this thread, M$ and other are still communicating with their customers. The only reason they bloat their communications with hype is because thats what the gamming community desires. BRL users on the other hand can usually see through hype and assertain the true nature of how the product can help them individually. So in some matters, BRL's communication line is much easier and involves less pre-rendered cinimatic sequences. They don't need to prepare a press conference, they dont need to do anything other than say "hey, the date is going back by a month or 3 because of some issues we're having, thanks for the dedication everyone!" or "sorry everyone, I'm taking the week off, I need to realign my vision and grab a pint".

Well without being pedantic, I'd have to point out that the handful of people who disagree with Warren or me, isn't "everyone" by a long shot.

Sigh. No it's not. For starters the views of the customers, such as they may be, clearly aren't homogeneous. Thus BRL are going to have to chose which (if any) of the diametrically opposed factions within the community they agree with most. I wonder if you think it would be a good idea for BRL to publicly declare who they think is right? Neither do I.

But we do, don't we? Speak for the rest that is. If BRL actually paid discussions like this any notice, then they would indeed get a skewed view of the real situation, as the people involved in these debates aren't representative of the community as a whole.

Doesn't it? Since BRL decided to have a forum, it's going to be a little tricky having one-way communication.

Come on. Since when is a delay on an estimated release date for software, NOT expected?

What is it that you as a customer need to know whats going on, that isn't covered by Marks most recent worklogs? Please, I'm dieing to hear which part of "The GUI module is *still* almost there! Unfortunately, there are a few platform inconsistencies to iron out." you don't understand.

Usually yes. In the specific case of Mark Sibly, no. Have you ever experienced one of Marks worklogs popping up without at least one follow-up thread showing up on the forum?

You are not being informed. You are being manipulated. Case in point: Windows Vista - does anyone actually know anything about it yet? A release date other than "No later than ultimo 2007". Microsoft have several thousands of beta testers, and probably the same ammount of people running illegal versions, yet it seems no-one knows the first thing about it, and just when you think you've gotten some reliable information, it turns out it was a "misrepresentation of facts". Wonderful.

Just because Microsoft are talking more than BRL, doesn't mean you're any better informed.

As far as I can tell Windows Vista is simply XP with an even more usless user interface.

BRLs customers are no smarter or dumber than everyone else, and can be manipulated just as easily. BRL has just chosen not to. I for one admire them for it - because honesty has undoubtedly cost them sales.

Depends on in which niche of the software market you are working and what the conditions for a project are. There exist total different cases. Most of the time if i would not hold the deadlines which are written in the contracts then i would be out of business and depending on the case even have to pay a penalty fee.


So what? Does it take time away from him if people talk about what he has written there? I don't think so...and when there is an major issue where confusion comes up then okay BRL would again have to write something but how often does this really happen? More a matter of balancing...


Greetings,

taumel

It seems to me that the smart business move is to decide which of the diametically opposed factions is bigger, not which they agree with. Picking the one you agree with is doing what you wanted in the first place, and therefore doesn't require any choice. You're of the opinion that people with your view are in the majority. I disagree. That's what BRL needs to weigh up.

They also need to weigh up another thing. If they offer more communication, will people who didn't want them to be less likely to buy their products? If they don't, will people who did want them to be less likely to buy? It also seems to me that they're not very likely to lose customers who are already happy with the communication by giving more of it.

The reason there has not been much communication recently is probably because there is not much to communicate. As soon as something interesting happens, you will hear about it via Mark's worklog or one of his forum posts.

Mark and skid are working hard right now on producing the new BMax update, which includes compiler bug fixes, compiler improvements, and of course there is the new GUI module as well. A new beta was released recently to the dev team and there should be something released publicly very shortly.

As for the 3D module, I believe work on that has stopped temporarily while Mark concentrates on the aforementioned things, however development will resume as soon as those things are out the way. Mark has already said that the 3D module won't be released this year, so for those waiting for it, it's at least a few months away yet.

And that's it.

Now, everybody SHUT UP! You got your communication from a BRL staff member! Get back to coding!

That was simply more pacification.

Excellent. Official BRL communication, stating just the same old things we allready knew from Mark's last worklog anyway.

Oh and one thing about the 3D module which Mark said in a thread somewhere, so some people may have missed it.

Well, that was certainly worth BRL's time. God knows how long it took them to read this thread. Hopefully they didn't bother.


Hey guess what? You did exactly the same thing. You just didn't <quote> him. There's no difference there, except you can understand his post without loss of context. It's a curtesy thing really.


About every 10 posts?

Please forgive me for counter-pointing that:


Which is basicaly saying "The reason nothing is being said, i because nothing is happening"?

Based on your other points, I can safely say that isn't the case. But this is the entire point of this thread, is it not?

People (some of the userbase) believe that perhaps BMax isn't the way they want to go because they have no reason to see it going anywhere. This isn't due to the language, it is due to the lack of communication. Saying nothing gives no assumptions right? In this case (future plans), this can backfire causing some to think it really isn't going anywhere and thus looking for other options which do show promise.



That's good to hear.



Then who is? If those that choose not to partake in a conversation about the future of the product, does that mean they care? Does that mean they dont? How do you determine what is important in your community?

The only way to know is to go by the opinions of those who are willing to speak up on a subject.


True, however merely pointing out that the glass is not full doesn't mean its half empty or half full. If you want to put it into a real world number everyone can understand than take the total number of individual views on this subject (thread), and weight it out. You and Warren are a small percentage compared to all that have responded to this thread, thus the majority on this subject would stack in our favor.

I guess that's the whole point of having a forum in BRL's case isnt it? To find out what your community has to say? In this thread's case I would think that the majority of those who cared to respond (and I am happy this was done in a constructive way) think that BRL's communication does lack, and that there are things that can be done through the many points made in this thread as an example to help the situation. Simply chalking it up to "your not a majority" isn't the correct way to respond to your community.



Since when does a company have to agree with it's customers? Or even think they're right at that?

They don't. Simple fact is that they merely have to provide for their customers needs/wants and they have good business. Agreeing with a customer is irrelevant since the customer is obviously paying for something. Correct, just because a customer is paying for something doesn't entitle them to more than what they are paying for, however to become a better business one would have to respond to their customers needs/wants.

Again, simply chalking a thread like this up to "ok, well, whatever" isn't the correct way to go. One would think that someone should take a discussion like this seriously because it is the thoughts and feelings of the userbase. Perhaps not the majority of the userbase, or perhaps so, its really hard to tell when not the entire userbase responds. But based on the views expressed, it can safely be concluded that this is the majority of those who care about the subject, and those who would be most affected if nothing is done.

What were you wanting, a lap dance? You asked for communication and you got communication from an official BRL staff member.

I think he meant that it sounded a bit off-tone. Meaning that is sounded more like "quit yer bitchin" rather than an attempt to respond to the thread.

Are you implying that Simon would have to have told us a completely different and inaccurate story compared to the one that Mark has given us, in order to please you/the person you are referring to? The only way for you to feel truthfully communicated to is if Simon comes up with a lie so that it sounds like the development cycle at Blitz Research is altered on a daily basis?

I took one look at this post, saw the size of the slider bar on the right and I figure... There's a lot of people preaching the opinions they've long since held and arn't going to change, and not very many listening. Ironically.

So I think i'll ignore this post. See you in a few days when you get out of here...

Nope, not implying that at all (I thought I was pretty clear, but apparently not).

I think it was the "And that's it. " that said it all for me. I don't want anyone to lie, but the mere matter that it was just regurgitated information and not a response to the topic with a nice "And that's it." at the bottom said "quit yer bitchin" to me... That's my opinion and how I percieved the response. You may have percieved it differently, good for you then.

A response to the topic doesn't have to include information about BMax, a response to the topic is basicaly the first line in his post. Although, the first line would be an excuse if anything. I'm not asking anything of BRL, I am merely discussing my feelings/thoughts about the topic (IE BRL communication). If no one cares then that's fine, then my words are a waste of space. However if no one in BRL cares based on the amount of responses this thread has generated, then I would consider that a mistake on BRL's behalf. But that's up to them.

The thread is about documented progress. I would like to know what is going on with BRL because I have invested a lot of time and money with blitz products and blitz created tools. I have tried other venues and unfortunately they were not as satisfying. The Blitz family of programming languages is a neccessity to me (not for hobby, but for making money) and to repeatedly get 'coming soon' is just not enough. Simon replied with another 'coming soon' message which months ago would have had much more merit.

If BRL would simply communicate whats going on in their heads and their products, the userbase would be woven much more tightly with BRL instead of the community holding itself up. This is a very strong community and all I am saying is that products and quality are not enough to keep a business going... the customers buy the products and would like to know what's going on with their investment (afterall bmax was an investment). We are the customers that allow Mark and friends to do what they love best. As a paying customer, and one that relies on blitz as a product design tool, I am asking for more communication so that I can make better informed decisions.

Had I known 5 months ago that the gui would still not be available (due to coming soon statements) then I would have attempted one myself. I know in the end that the gui made by BRL would be much better than one I could come up with... however "had I known" it would take this long, I would have given it a try in hopes to finish software that is on hold (currently bringing in $0)

Well, I wish I could give you more detailed info - but seeing as I'm not a programmer at BR (and thank goodness for that - unless you wanted less frequent and more buggy updates ;), I only have a limited understanding myself of what's going on the dev side of things.

What it comes down to is that Mark is not the type to allow himself to be easily distracted by non-essential coding stuff. Believe me, I know from experience that when he starts coding, he becomes cut off from everything else - and getting even so much as an email reply can be tough going!

That's just his style I'm afraid. So for updates, you'll just have to rely on reading his worklogs and the odd post on here from either Mark, Skid, James or myself. That's not going to change anytime soon.

Becky, it seems strange to me that you replied to a topic in which you are supposedly ignoring ;]


He quite clearly stated nothing interesting is happenning. You want to be told every time Mark squashes one bug?

Based on his other points, we were already told that exact information previously. Why should BRL have to repeat themselves ad nauseum?


Actually, it's due to the current command set. No amount of communication is going to change what command set is available to BMax right now.


And they wonder why it doesn't happen very often anymore.


I'd say there were about 3 people strongly for (you, lucid, rifraf) and 4 people strongly against (flame, warren, terabit, me). I'd say it's pretty even. In any case it's irrelevant. Most of the people who are against won't bother saying anything because this conversation has been had before. Nothing new has been covered and nothing will change as a result. This conversation will spring up in another 12 months after MaxGUI has been released. And only the people that 1) didn't get their way so far or 2) are still relatively new here or 3) are people who love a good argument will bother responding. Truth is, most people who have been here long enough have participated in this conversation once before and don't see the point in participating again. The reason there are more 'yaysayers' than 'naysayers', is because you fit in the #1 category listed above, whereas the naysayers do not necessarily fit in any of those categories...


So, basically it was a toned down version of what the naysayers were saying all along, then. Well, I'll be.

@simon
Now that is a much better response to the thread in my opinion :-)

Perhaps we should deligate someone take Mark out to the pub every friday night, get a pint or two in him, and ask how things are going (briefly), and then post an update for him ;-)

@vanilla
Your points are so 'all over the place' that it's hard to figure out what the hell your saying...



Really???? to me it's a lack of communication, what makes you so well on to blatently tell me what I think?



Really??? So your saying that this might be an issue if it comes up again? Perhaps a pattern should be found rather than an excuse?



Your right! Wow, you just proved the point! So your saying they won't bother responding because they know nothing will change? Ignorance is the easiest solution I guess.

Nothing is going to change, fine, nothing is going to change.

Risk vs Reward and Change are the two principals of business. If you can't meet your customers at a mid point in the least, then it just goes to show.

Please add:

To that list. Perhaps its a local thing? Perhaps it's that little American in me saying "voice your opinion, try to help make a change" that is coming through here. I see alot of sucessful businesses over here in the USA, and they all seem to have a common theme which makes them so sucessfull. Wonder if 'ignore the customer' is in one of Mr. Gates desk manuals for his customer rep staff?

After posting this I had to ask myself why in the world a product like DB would have such a huge community? The language blows, why is it still around. So I headed over there to see what I could find that was relevant to this thread and right there at the top of the forum was a post "TGC Newsletter Issue 33 is Out" which caught my attention. Only a few weeks old, but still attracting posters.


I honestly can't remember the last newsletter I got in my email.. Yes, I can see it on the front page of BRL, but if asked to summerize the content, I couldnt. I enjoyed the BRL newsletters, but that's not the point... It's odd that as I went searching for reasons why their products are doing so well I would find that their recent newsletter had an interview with Lee about the future of DBpro.

What am I asking? Nothing more than an open com channel that doesn't span 5 months at a crack.

I'd rather he was coding. If that's the way he prefers to operate, I'd quite like to let him get on with it.

..well..my thoughts is that BRL dont care too much about what we talking or aguing about here...they will do whatever they want..I do apprechiate BRL's work, on the first place Blitz3D, becouse I really earn a lot of money with it, but customers needs and wishes growing up, and step by step, I'm start struglling with deeply respectable and lovely Blitz3D...fact that Blitz3D is still and it will be forever DX7 since first day without any API upgrading dx8.1 at least, telling me that I cant expect too much from BRL in future too..and thats why I move on with Torque Game engine and Torque Shader engine...GG simply talking with customers and supporting their products a lot..thats all I can say..I'm here becouse I like this community, not becouse of the big expectations from BRL...

The more they hang around BlitzBasic the slower the progress gets. A Status update every week or fortnight would be really appreciated but I'm not gonna hold my breath :) BRL are doing some pretty awesome work though!

Right with you lot getting an answer about BRL i think theres very little more that can be said on this subject now.

The long and short of it is, BRL are sqwishing bugs in soon to be released stuff. The boring yet needed part of any software release. They can't say how long it will be before release as they can't predict how many bugs there are!.

Rest assured your views are known by members of BRL, so debating it further would not be productive in anyway.

With that in mind, i am now locking this thread. So you all have a nice day!.