Direction of BlitzMax?

What do you think the future direction will be for BlitzMax?
A big selling point is x-platform plus the ability to add 3rd-party modules and change the source code.
How are these going to affect it's future?
Personally, I think there might come a time when
people have more then one 'flavour'
e.g. A x-platform version and OS specific version(s)
In some situations OGL 1.2 support is holding back DX stuff. What happens when people start producing or installing DX only modules.
Could there come a time when BlitzMax+ is a Windows only language?

I hope not.

It's already started and I would welcome it - sorry to be so negative but (like it or not) Windows is the main Operating System and BRL have limited time which could be focused on PC development.

And Mac owners constitute the main shareware market. So touche!

true... true... but soon there'll be a intel based mac...

can windersz for da mac be far off...

along with dot Net for the mac, dx10 fer der mac, and a lot of other stuff yet to be announced... fer der mac...


hey... this was a very good speculative question TonyG...

--Mike

Care to provide a reference for that claim? Because it sounds to me like a misunderstanding of comments made by a handful of cross platform developers. The misunderstanding being that while Mac sales may be higher than Windows for a few cross platform developers on their own site, the total number of sales ( including portals ) is massively in favour of Windows.

Personally I think that BlitzMax took a good step in becoming cross platform and evidently that's something appealing to most people, whether they are on all three platforms or not. I work on a Mac but the idea of having the possibility of compiling the exact same software on a Windows or Linux machine is definitely appealing, just for the numbers if not for the favoritism.

I agree that people are already focussing on their platform of choice - we're already seeing people dabbling with custom DLL's and windows-specific GUI code and so on. The same is probably true of Mac and Linux fans. There's always going to be some personal preference on the part of most users which will impose itself on the BlitzMax `world` and steer it in certain directions. But underneath all of that, I think BlitzMax will still be fundamentally cross-platform, which is part of its beauty. If somebody wants to make Window's specific stuff (which is already happening a LOT), they can feel free to do so. Obviously the Mac/Linux users will be left out of a lot of stuff but oh well.

I think there's plenty of room here to have people making platform specific stuff, plus at the same time platform independent stuff. It's not all black and white.

This is incorrect. I have seen no evidence to support this claim.

I only like the cross platform in the aspect of creating a server side (host) in linux and the actual client in Windows. This is the ONLY reason I like the cross platform cabability!

I know tons of developers for various companies. Only 15% of them use Linux (because unix is the base os at their job). I know 1% that use Mac, and they are merely graphics designers (they play games, but they own Windows for that).

I understand the desire for cross platform, but lets face it, Windows owns the shareware market of games. When is the last time you saw a bargin basement mac sold? You see it all the time in the pc world (IE emachine, barebones systems, ma and pa pc companies). Macs for gaming are few and far between.

The meat and potatoes of the market is in Windows (unfortunatly). Like it or not.

Take a 30 year old causal computer user (email and internet). Chances of him sitting down with a linux system and understanding how to run anything is just as much of a chance as my 4 year old son understanding how to use a linux machine (but he picks up the winodws machine just fine).

Now take a mac, what casual computer user wants to pay that much for a pc? And in that, why would they with the small amount of support out for a mac? Go to every computer shop in your area and ask if they will work on software issues in a mac. Bet you get 1 out of 10 that will admit to being an expert in Macs.

I am NOT saying that Macs and linux machines aren't good machines! I AM saying that the market is flooded with Windows, and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Yeah, lets expand our market a bit and offer to mac users and linux users. What is it really worth? You spend all this time and resources expanding to provide for a small market just to gain those extra 5 units sold?

Like I said, I will be using the linux side of BMax for server related stuff (when the 3d module rears it head), but will still be providing for Windows users primarily! If I sell to 300 windows users then GREAT! But spending all that extra time in development AND testing for Mac's and/or Linux just to push it up to 305 isn't worth my time.

So let's get this straight: You're called ONE EYEd Jack, right, yet you expect the fact that you haven't seen something to be significant? Okaaaaaay...



Maaan, I was being ever so slightly flippant. But hey, the Windows market being more saturated would actually make the Mac market the main one for anyone with an ounce of intelligence... less competition, see ;) Oh I'm all twisty and turny!

In all seriousness, though, I would like to see figures. I seem to recall some folk arguing for Mac supremacy around these parts a while back but I don't remember being particularly convinced... when I picture the average bored housewife, she's inevitably sat at the household PC. That's when I'm not imagining her doing inventive things with Mr Sheen, of course. Oh yessss, I would like to see those lithe figures alrigh... sorry was I posting that or just thinking it?

But yes [cough!] if you seriously want to maximise sales then, fairly obviously, you should release on both Mac and Win in order to take advantage of both markets. That's a "proper", sober argument for Max remaining cross-platform and everything.


Assuming the current generation won't just be thrown in the bin, that's a fairly significant number of potential sales that will be left hanging about. Worth courting.

assuming...

i very rarely care to operate on assumptions...

fact... an intel based mac is in the cards...

you can take it from there...


hey... i like the cross platform nature of 'max... i own pcs and macs...

but facts are facts...
and assumtions are just that...


--Mike

Less competition? for what? For you to create a "not so great" game and be able to sell it because there is no competition?

Competition is what pushes for the best! To simply sell to Macs because there are less developers to muscle in on your racket is not a valid argument (sorry).

I would think a "proper" sober argument is "how fun is your game?" AND "who owns what to sell it on?". Simply saying that this person owns a mac, and he wants this game, and he knows that (has known) games are more widly known to conform to the windows market isnt an excuse to cater to a small percentage.

Look at the amount of time it is taking mark to develop Blitzmax. Why is it taking so long? I would speculate that the majority of the time is spent on making sure everything is cross-platform. If I have to wait another year for features that will be obsoleted by the time of release, I doubt it was worth the wait. I know I wont be selling to a minority of mac users, so in essence the wait was pointless.

Again, what is it worth? Why aren't all developers going mac and linux as well? There is a really good reason!

Joe Schmoe does web developing. Because Joe likes the Mac style of developing he bought one. Because his kid uses it from time to time his kid wants to load some games on it. Should you be catering to Joe's son? Will Joe's son compensate you for the time and resources it took for you to cater to Joe's son?

Joe's son sees your game "mutants hellfire" on sale over a web distribution. Joe's son (lets say Billy) sees it is Windows only and runs to pester Joe to get a Windows PC. Joe, being a smart guy and owning a mac obviously has a bit of money to play with, runs out and gets an eMachine or a barebones system for Billy. Joe is happy that Billy isn't screwing with his work machine, and Billy is happy he gets to play your game. Billy is then opened up to the plethura of games available for Windows and never turns back to Mac. Joe sees some of Billy's games and begins to play them himself from time to time. Joe opens his eyes to video games and the joys they can bring. Joe farts crooked one day and his Mac gives up. The Mac goes into the shop where they spend the next 3 weeks trying to figure out what is wrong with it where they then just reload the os and blame it on a virus. Joe isn't distrout since all his favorite apps are also on the Windows platform for work, so he can make due in the meantime.

Morals of the story:
Macs are for work, PCs are for everything
Joe is a smart guy.
Billy still wets his bed.
Joe becomes addicted to WoW, looses his job and wife.
Mac sits on a shelf next to his Mac Classic where the two reminise about the old days of oregon trail!

If you want to argue expanding your market, perhaps BMax should be PC/GCube/XBox/PS2 instead of PC/Linux/Mac?

That the new 'uns are to be backwards-compatible isn't an assumption though. Clicking "compile" in the Mac version of Max (in addition to the Windows one) will be a pretty investment-light, risk-free activity even in a worst-case scenario.

Isn't TV3D cross-compatible, then? (I'll tell you what it isn't, incidentally... DevC++ compatible. The buggers!)


Now THAT'S how to make assumptions! No, what I understand is that the market is smaller but the percentage of shareware buyers relatively larger for Macs in comparison to Windows. One benefit I see cited is that you get a more intimate relationship with your customers and can fine tune the product more efficiently as a consequence, leading to... higher, not lesser quality.


It's very endearing how you can try to prove your point by making up a story off the top of your head that totally backs you up yet still manage to come up with a scenario that totally fails to do so. Let's see, can Joe's son compensate me for the time and resources it took for me to cater to him? What, that whole minute it took to press "compile" and wait for the exe to plop out? Yes... yes he probably can.


No, because they're closed formats obviously.

I don't understand why it was 1.2 that was settled on. Why not 1.0? Why not 1.4 (or whatever version first supported pixel buffers;)?

Your Missing the point!


No, the whole 2 years you waited for Mark to finish a module in BMax (3d or gui for examples).

Now I am NOT saying Mark is slow by any means. I am saying it takes more time^5 to do something cross platform in BMax.

Tell you what, prove me wrong in this case! Create a game that is cross platform in BMax, test it (on all possible systems it is compiled for), and release it and keep track of who you sell to (IE MAC, Win, Linux, etc).

If you can show 1 out of 10 (10%) copies are non-windows, then I will kindly back down and admit to defeat!


Someone could write modules for XBox and PS2 without a problem (XBOXSDK comes to mind). The only cost to you there is the lic from M$ and Sony. But hey, the developer will have to overcome that, not Mark!




What does that mean? Think about it!
That means that yes, the market is smaller (check)
That means that there could be 6 Billion Windows owners out there, of which only 100,000,000 buy shareware (.1%) and it could mean that there are 10,000 Mac owners out there, of which 100 buy shareware (1%). So yeah, by that definition your right!

If I sell 500 copies at 10 bucks a copy to windows owners
$5,000
And if I sell (lets ues a 100 to 1 ratio on Mac sales) 5 copies to Mac users at 10 bucks a copy
$50

So yeah, I just made $50 on the Mac market! woohoo!

Now lets put in some factors of development. Bugs! Lets say there is a bug on the Mac version, when will it be resolved? If it is a BMax bug, well it will be worked on in due time (IE the current sound issues). So meanwhile you have 10 Mac users peeved and 500 happy windows users. Now the bug is fixed, recompile, test on all available machines, re-test the windows versions to see if it introduced anything there (just to be sure), re-release (or patch)... That's a ton of work for $50 bucks if you ask me.

GarageGames got an XBox 360 license for their users.

microsoft want to release 5+ indie games a month and are currently touring the Garage Games Indie games convention all weekend loking for new games they want on Xbox360.

THey have several 360's at the show, as well as a lot of the gaming press who are eager to get at the Xbox360 at every opportunity.

Jeremy has been keeping me updated on the situation as there has been some interest in Aerial Antics. Which thanks to our b3d loader can easily be ported to Torque.

Bmax supporting Xbox360 would be a great opportunity for all involved. Looking forward to seeing if anything new comes of Aerial Antics.

The way this discussion is going is completely pointless. Yes I sell more to Win users and yes I sell less to Mac users and yes I don't sell to Linux users but I like to support the three platforms. It's not like I have to do a lot of effort to get it done.


Sora.

Hi,

On the one side i love the idea to have blitzMax crossplattform and so let me choose which plattform i wanna use if not all. On the other side i fear that BRL from the dev-team is just too small for providing all the platforms and the different versions (win-X, win-Y, 32bit, 64bit, linux--A, linux-B, mac-PPC, macIntel,...) on these while also providing great features, quality code and reasonable releasedates at the same time.

I wonder how far blitzMax and the 3dmodule for instance would be if there only would be a windows version developed. It's fun to compile a game on linux but can i make money with it at the moment?

Bottomline is if you've limited ressources and have the same dev-time than you have to focus. And this focus can be wide spread but not going into depth too much or the opposite. Which one is better depends on your goals and those of your customers and if your after a long term or short term perspective...

I think for most of us it would have been better if blitzMax would have been a windows-only thing in the first place but with multiplatform in mind from the beginning. And then after one platform is running well taking care of the other platforms one by one. But maybe this is unrealistic if you haven't done it before...


Greetings,

taumel

I totally agree and made a similar statement on another thread.



It's a shame because I think BlitzMax is a great product but fear the over ambition of BRL is slowing progress of vital updates like bug fixes for the Windows version.

Bear in mind that the worst of the cross-platform details of BlitzMax are out of the way, ie. the compiler output, low level OS interface 'glue', the GUI module (with its unusually heavy amount of multi-platform code), etc.

Most modules are implemented on top of all that in high-level Max code, which basically makes it automatically cross-platform (particularly OpenGL-based stuff, things like linked lists, banks, string manipulation, arrays, etc, etc).

For example, Max2D is compiled from mostly the same code on all platforms, and I believe most of the 3D engine (at least on the OpenGL side) should be a similar case: the 3D math and the high level entity manipulation code will all be .bmx stuff -- automatically cross-platform. The DirectX-specific driver will obviously be another matter, but will no doubt still use the same high level code, so it's not like a full 3D engine needs to be written from scratch for both drivers.

Half of the point of what's been done so far is to make cross-platform development as transparent as possible for Mark and co. (The current hold-up, the GUI module, is a significant exception.)

I'm going to stick up for cross platform.

Half the reason I bought BlitzMax was the idea of being able to create a product for 3 markets in the time it takes to produce a product for just one market. Sure, 2 of the markets are much, much smaller than the first, but they are separate markets none the less. The prospect of even an extra 3-4% increase in sales, simply by tinkering then hitting compile on the 2 extra platforms is one that should be jumped app-on!

What a few people are missing is that the markets are separate.

The big bonus of being able to access the mac and linux market is this:

Less competition.

At the moment, I have a product which has, by my best guess, has a 10% share of its target market on Windows. I'm up against people who have much, much higher marketing budget than I do. I end up middle page to second page on search engines. I'm unlikely to be top of my download category at download sites. etc. etc. You get the picture.

Now, if I had produced this product with BlitzMax instead of Blitz3D, I would have access to a market, which doesn't have a single product like the one I'm offering. By default, I could have a 100% market share on mac and linux. I get to be top of the search engine page when you add the little word "Mac" to your search request. By default, top of the download sites in this area. Sure there are less people , but then, I am also going to get a bigger slice of the less peoples' pie.

The question is, what would 100% of the Mac and Linux market produce in sales, compared to 10% of the windows market. I would say more than enough to justify BlitzMax continuing down a multi-platform road.

If you're creating games, then you'd probably be able to use the Windows-only features, because most games will be downloaded on a Windows computer, most likely. If you're developing an application, such as a 3D modeler or developing a library to interact with things other than games, something like Konfabulator, or BlitzSQL, then you'd probably use cross-platform.

But as GA said, you might want to do games cross-platform because of less competition. That's probably what I would do...IF I HAD BLITZMAX!!! :D

That's rather an assumption. For the most part, cross-platform support isn't that hard to do, and ends up leaving you arguably with better code and what's likely to be an easier to maintain engine in the future.

Windows is probably the hardest environment to support anyway. You've got such as mish-mash of hardware and libraries installed, drivers that lie about capabilities, etc. The only reason it does so well is because of critical mass. How long did it take to add DirectX support to an already adequate OpenGL based system?

On Mac you have everything basically standard. On Linux it's also pretty much the same. Most of the problems with Linux have been down to inexperience on the user's part (not knowing how to download driver install scripts) and no packaging for automated dependency resolution. None of these things have taken BR any longer because they haven't done anything about them.

The other side of things is say BlitzMax no longer supporting cross-platform would cause people like me to leave, and though you might not think I'm that important, other people may have the same idea and then BlitzMax would sell less.

So from a BR perspective, not supporting cross platform, especially when some of their other real competitors do would be a bad idea. Who cares how many games get made? They're trying to sell a compiler here.

Why would you buy a compiler without a built-in 3D engine if you want to do 3D stuff anyway? This is the same old typical whining that's gone on for years here. If BR were to drop Mac and Linux support, you wouldn't get your precious 3D module that much sooner, and they'd lose sales and market share. The other fact is most of you people aren't even going to produce anything saleable with it, so why you're so worried about platform market share is beyond me.

If max could make games for consoles, id be prepared to pay lots. But I don't know how much licences and SDKs cost, and all that.

Aside from the GUI module being something of a special case, as has been mentioned, the reason I missed your point is because you seem to have bought a cross-platform compiler only to be terribly upset about what that might mean. I can't really be expected to pre-empt a thought-process like that. If you didn't want Max's feature-set, why did you buy it?

That you can potentially make more money by addressing more than one market and do so very easily with Max is a brute fact: I'm amazed anyone can find that contentious.



We don't know exactly what that might mean - Sybixsus suggests that, despite the Windows market being bigger in total, some cross-platform outfits find the Mac market the more profitable. Nicolas reckons Windows yields more sales but Mac is still worth it. Ask enough people and you will more than likely fill the entire range of possible responses.

My take is that each market will be what you make of it. If you think Macs are too much trouble to support and don't put any effort into growing sales there, then you can well expect to only ever make fifty bucks from Mac owners. You've got to be in it to win it, though, and Max at least gets you there... the rest is up to you.


Yup, it's probably wrong of us to lump the 360 in with its peers. I wouldn't want to try to swing a similar license independently, mind. Maybe BRL should try again, assuming the licensing terms actually make it worthwhile to bother? I mean, an Xbox presence would be neat but I wouldn't want to turn over any IP for it.

Blitzmax is definitely getting better and better.

Trouble is, serious games players (and pretty much everyone who has no idea how to use a PC properly) use Windows. All this emphasis on cross platform compatibilty is going to be so under used on two other platforms that are not known (or even heard of by many people) as gaming platforms.

Perhaps things will be better when 3D support comes in and the longer Max is out. But at the moment I feel Blitzmax is a slightly slower, cross platform but easier to program version of Blitz Basic 2D.

I'd take the 50$ if you dont want it.



I thought it was determined that BlitzMax was actually faster...?

Lenn, MS loan out the dev kits free of charge to indies who's games they want. (according to the 3 developers I've spoken to that have gotten on XBL).

Scalable, rotatable, alpha'd sprites in Max are probably a bit slower than BlitzBasic's flat sprites - that's just down to the gfx API used. I like having the extra options but its just personal preference. Compiler wise Max whoops BBs ass real good.

In the early stages of development, I expect this did take up much of time, but not now that BlitzMAX has a solid cross-platform base (with the exception of the GUI module)

If you look at the BlitzMAX module source, platform or processor specific code actually accounts for a fairly small proportion of the total.

More interestingly, since BlitzMAX is designed to be cross-platform from the ground up, we may see 'Max on other platforms in the future.

I thought it was determined that BlitzMax was actually faster...? 

In my tests between blitz3d and blitzmax (demo version of blitzmax, in non-debug compilemode), BlitzMax was over 5 TIMES FASTER than Blitz3d in many cases. So, I'd say you're correct if you are reffering to general program code execution.

Over the past two years, every independent survey I have read in tech journals puts Linux at the #2 OS in use in homes, with MAC coming in 3rd. Windows, of course, being #1.

MAC OS is a very "botique" market, but to prove your statement wrong, all one had to do is visit the Shareware bins at your local store. Its all Windows.

In my tests, BMax is very close to C++ in performance. There are some speed issues with graphics, but I get much faster speed with OGL over DX on all test systems. Once the official GUI is released, I will likely be using BMax only from now on as long as the GUI system will "at least" have the features and performance of the B+ GUI system.

Actually thats no longer the case. In the old days hw accelerated quads would never match the speed of a simple software 'blit' on screen provided neither scaled, blended or rotated.

These days, 3D graphics card acceleration has seriously outshot software rendering by a huge margin.

I think you missed the bit where I already said I thought it was probably wrong. Linux being #2 in homes is a bit of a surprise - wouldn't have expected that.

Forward!

.. and UP!

Nice assumption yourself bud ;-)
If you think I bought Blitzmax due to cross-platform, then you're dead wrong!

I bought Blitzmax because I love the language and was told there would be a 3d module for it (sometime) by Mark! Cross-platform says nothing to me, infact my eyes are blinded to those words when I develop in BMax!

For the longest time (since the dawn of B3D), I have been trying to do OO code in B3D. Everytime I write something I just think it looks messy (due to the language not having object oriented features). With Blitzmax I feel comfortable codeing (even if I spend a good amount of time overcoming the lack of documentation).

Slap a 3D module on there and I will be a happy boy!

Cross-platform, no thanks (may be for a linux server host program, but nothing more).


Sure, if you can break me even on the amount of time spent on testing the mac version of <insert title here> (which will outweight that anyday). So figure TimexRatePerHour, ahh screw it, give me $200 for that 50 and we'll call it even (a good deal on your part) ;-)

"We must look forward, and not backward, upward and not forward, and twirrrrrlllling, twirrrrrrrrrrlllinggg towards freedom"

To be honest.. if you're not expecting to earn more than $50 on the Mac version, then you'd probably be best off just scrapping the whole project...
You're most likely not going to sell for more then a couple of hundred on the windows version...

If you've got a good game, selling for more than a grand or two, then you're foolish not to expose that game to the Mac and Linux crowd,
when it's only a matter of pressing "compile" on another computer (maybe you need to change a line or 10 too, but I'm sure it won't be much)..

What is with you people and thinking that developing is merely pressing 'compile'?

You do have to test the software before it goes out!

Every class object I write is tested thuroghly before it is put into the engine. And I test on a variety of different pcs rather than just 2 or 3 to make sure it works for everyone. Then the engine is tested as a whole on a variety of pcs, and then is it ready to ship.

Simply making an exe doesn't mean that your job is done!

Oh for crynout loud.

Figure of speach, Dark Half, figure of speach.

@Lenn-

Blitz-basic sprites are hardware accelerated on most machines, but maybe quads are faster on newer cards. I would be happy to have been wrong in this case!

Has anyone tried any comparisons of dumping a lot of sprites to the screen?

@Evak
So making games for the XBox is impossible unless MS hires you to do it?

@Nomen
You answered someone elses question mait! :) but thanks

Lenn. You can't legaly develop for any console unless you get permission from the manufacturer. And getting your game out is a long and drawn process involving MS doing Q&A testing.

Even rules for seemingly trivial things like save game structure and format and how it's stored on mem cards etc is strictly controlled.

But if MS like your indie game, they will sort you out with whats needed to get it on Xbox live. (assuming your engine is portable).

Lenn/One Eyed Jack - you can see how the confusion arose ; )