OK... I'm Defecting (Again) :)

after looooong and careful thought on whether or not to:

1- license BlitzMax and the 3D Module (which hasn't come to fruition just yet)

2- license Torque Shader Engine

3- license something else that'll help my drab looking textures come to life... something which will help my ocean look like real ocean water...


so... i decided on licensing TrueVision3D...


ok... so shoot me...

i kinda thought that the 3D module might be out in beta by now... Torques shader engine is a looong ways off till it's ready... and 3Impact, as much as i like it, only has realistic normal mapping based on the single directional light it gives you... ever try to make a normalmapped cylindrical interior work off of one directional light...

now Blitz3d is cool... i just don't have the texturing skilllz to make some of the stuff look really good... to make metals look like real metals... in short, all my stuff sorta looks like programmers art...

anyways... so there you have it... the confessions of a traitor... please don't hang me... a single round through the head and make it quick and merciful :)

--Mike

Meh.

We all deserve a completely undenied choice on what to use.
Just as long as, once you become rich and famous, you admit that it's all thanks to B3d :D

I've never heard of 'TrueVision3D'. Does it do submarine stuff?

You won't regret it. Out of the budget engines, TV3D is one of the best.

How come you never teamed up with an artist Mike? Surely there must have been a few available who have come and gone during your game's development You'd have had this game wrapped up over a year ago!

puk... are ya drunk tonight, or what.. if so, share :)

Brice... yeah... so far i'm havin fun with it... it's really easy to pick up... and i've already managed to get something in the engine...



i've only had the thing a few hours, but if it's anythinglike what it appears to be... this may be the one :) (i never said that before... now did i :) )


HJ... the last guy i tried working with had an attention span of a gnat... any real and exacting work that was put in front of him, and he was off on the internet playing video games...

hey... that's ok... not everyone shares my obsession with a sub sim :)


--Mike

Mike: Overall what is your views on 3Impact other than the one thing you mentioned?

overall i like it... simple to code (c++, delphi, powerbasic, vb) and for the most part it works...

the physics is built in... so, if that's your biggeee... then look into 3Impact...


the big drawback with me is the lighting, or the lack of it...

if, in the engine, normal mapped textures only use the data from a single directional light source... then it is of little use to me, especially when trying to put together an interior scene comprised of being in the insides of a cylindrical hull (sub interior)...

only one side of the hull gets lit... the rest is dark... now i'm right back where i was with 3DRAD... coming up with workarounds... i had to figure out an algorithm that moved the directional light angles as the view moved... it worked... but not so great...

another the work around to this is using two meshes to simulate a dual lighting pass, and have a normal mapped mesh and a non normal mapped mesh, one affected by local lighting, and showing through the normal mapped one, which has to be not really a normal mapped model, but a heightmap that the engine mods to a normal map... which, in my opinion looks more like a shadow map...

... not acceptable

i even tried old fashion lightmapping... which again used the dual mesh, dual pass effect... that seemed to work out the best...


bumpmapped with lightmap

bumpmapped with no lightmap

but still... the lack of lighting seemed to hamstring whatever i wanted to do... and that combined with my lack of artistic talents caused me big time grief...

i could only get a half decent looking water effect out of it... again probably my fault and not the engines...


my water

some good looking water... exactly the effect i want

after seeing stuff like this... and seeing that TV3D can let me do this quite easily... well, i had to take a closer 'look' at TV3D...

also... i could never get a real good environment mapped sub in the ocean... on smaller things, hey, no problem... but on large things that were deforming... i couldn't do it... and i didn't think that it should require that much expertise to do this... hell, even DarkBasic allowed me to do this with a single shader...


so... in short, if you're not hung up on bumpmapping and shaders like i am... and you want easy built in physics... this is a good choice.


--Mike

Ive played around with TV , let us know how it goes Mike.
The beta looks good and has some nice features (from what i can tell from the vids and screencaps)

I agree with you on 3impact, its probably the easiest physics based engine Ive seen.
but lacks in other area's.
lighting, textureing ect

Zmatrix

Instead of using shaders, you could make an effect that looked probably just as good with Blitz3D by simply applying a faint spheremap to the surface using your metal texture. Also set EntityShininess to around .5 - 1 so there are some specular highlights on the vertices, and voila! A nice shiny (or relatively dull, depending on the spheremap intensity) metal surface! Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by the lack of "metal" surfaces?

Anyhow, good luck with TrueVision3D! Just remember to check out the Max3D demo when it comes out (if ther will be any demo) :)

Mike - it's the same short-sighted, like it or lump it attitude that plagued 3drad. I think Leonard and his new friends have no experience what-so-ever actually making games and only a very limited ability to imagine what might be required from or expanded upon for a small developer.

They seem to give you the features that make you want to buy the product only for you to realise later on these features are severely hampered in one way or another and not much use across a broader spectrum of possibilites.

I have to say that's why I steered clear of 3impact - I just don't trust Leonard or his buddies to deliver the goods.

Though after getting into B3d, I've 100% faith in the 3d module for Blitzmax and I'm not gonna budge until it arrives. I'm sleeping easy for a change!

John... no... you've hit the nail right on the head... this is where i seemed to have lost it with Blitz... i used to be able to come up with some decent looking 'metallic' effects, but for the life of me no more...

i'm going to look at this once again... i did a wall recently and managed to apply a lightmap and a bumpmapped texture blending...

anyways, if you have any pointers or links, post em up here... i need all the help i can get :) thx


Sam... yeah, i looked carefully at TSE... i wanted to go with it, but from what i could see, it's still got a long ways to go before it's ready... and i still have trouble getting the simplest coding done with TGE... there's no real reference!!! :) unless you enjoy wading through doxygened code and finding out what Torque is doing... then writing your own code to change that to what you want... that can get really tiresome fast... so, TSE didn't make much sense for me at this time...


HJ... i see some of the same things myself... but they have made a few games (check out the site) so i'm gonna have to lay the lack of success on my lap... and not blame them... but yeah, i found myself doing workarounds again... just like in RAD :) that was one of the factors in my decision...


BlitzMax... yeah, ole 'MAX... this is what i've been really waiting on myself... after that lil tease that Mark let us see, the one with the shadered boxes and the bit of physics... but this won't be around until the beginning of next year... if it were available today, there would be no choice for me to make...


--Mike

Great choice.... TV3D 6.5 beta is amazing.

6.2 is decent as well, but 6.5 takes the engine to new heights.

TV3D is also so bloody easy to code for, you will love the speed. It is insane.

red, for metals add a environment map with 2x multiply, some shinyness, and you can control some of the glare with vertex colours or the values of the environment map.

Works wonders for me :).

thx E...

--Mike

Holy moly those are some nice screenshots :)

that last one aint mine Mr. P... only the first few are from stuff i did in 3Impact...

...but that last screenshot comes from here... http://graphics.cs.lth.se/theses/projects/projgrid/


that's what i'd like mine to look like though :)


--Mike

Heh...TV3d.....the engine is geat, but you'll learn to hate the people there. BTW, good luck getting collision to work...

Most of the people there are hard on you if you ask stupid questions and done use search, but its the way boards should be.

Especially the people who wont read or are obviously lazy.

Collisions are easy to get working... you have pre 6.2?

No, its not even about that. Its a high sense of arrogrance that tends to be common over there...far more than any boards I've been on. Its ironic cause I have yet to see anything impressive from anyone there anyways.

BTW, I made good use of 6.2 and was pretty close to getting the 6.5 but decided to wait until it's actually released....that was back in February cause it was "almost ready". Well.......9 months later and..........

Red... don't go man...

Hello.

Aren't I right in saying, excuse the pun, that you've jumped ship a number of times during the development of this game?

How long has it been, now? I think, and I know you just want it to be perfect, that you should just plough on as you are now, get the game releasable and then migrate afterwards with decent user feedback, and perhaps an idea of when Max-3D will be available.

The work you've put into this could make it a flagship product (boom-boom) and it would be a shame to lose that from Blitz related products catalogue.

Then again, we wouldn't miss your words of 'wisdom' you old fart, so actually, go on, bugger off :o)

Goodbye.

Okay Red just think of that sub you named yourself after. Wasn´t there something about hunting around for it in the film title?

So go on, hunt around, but I personally guarantee that you won´t find a better or nicer bunch of game freaks than the Blitz crowd. Anyway, I hope you come back to the light in the future, when your crisis of faith has passed.

hey... **sniff** **sniff** thanks guys...

i'm not leaving anytime soon... as a matter of fact, i'm still working on the Blitz3D version of the sim...

TrueVision is just another tool that i've decided to punish myself with :)


so you're not that lucky... not just yet... you're stuck with the ole fart for a lil while longer... it would seem :)


--Mike

So I can start breathing again ?

> ok... so shoot me...

BANG! BANG! BANG!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, BANG! BANG! BANG!

(In tribute, notice how I've only used 3 sets of 3 shots each?)

hey Red October...you are not traitor...you just searching best way to do your things since BRL didnt offer something what can cover your needs...thats all man..good luck with TV3D...good choice..some times already I'm flying on Torque Shader engine..and I thing I didnt make mistake...

Mike, you mentioned 3Impact and normal maps. Did you only try providing a bump map and letting the engine convert it to a normal map or did you get an actual normal map working as well? I'm trying to get the athene model used in Rob's demo and Ant's demo and it's not happening. At first I thought it might have been expecting to find the normal map's texture coords on the second UV channel, but apparently it ignores the second UV channel, so I'm not sure what else I could do. Just curious if you had it working for a normal map, in which case it's my fault or if there's a problem with the engine.

Hey Red!

Did you read the licensing properly? or are you buying into the $500 version? Otherwise you (a) can not charge for your product, (b) you can only make one product with it, what then - you have to buy it again? I don't think so

I have to say that only the water and maybe the terrain (which is an extra cost for that editor) seem better than B3d. Am I being a little naive?

I must stress that it DOES NOT MATTER which engine you purchase or use!!!!!

If you have a good artist on your side, the product will shine as far as I am concerned.

(I have Virtools, which is used for commercial games on PC, PS2 and XBOX, but without (1) really good tutorials and (2) an artist ready to give me some time the engine cannot make me a great "AAA" game or even a simple product.

A small team of good reliable people is worth more than the engine imho.

I have seen some really very good things in B3D and I'm playing the BlitzMax waiting game just now. Let us know how you get on, please. Good Luck anyway!


IPete2.

Virtools is a great package... from what i hear... keep us advised as to your progress...

yes... the license in TVD3D is for a single commercial product... but there are other options though, but eventually, i'll need the unlimited license ($500) for unlimited commercial distribution...


--Mike

Red ... after seeing the TSE build running on Xbox 360 I think you've made a mistake! TSE is moving really strong and it's a platform that actually goes places. Good luck though ... as long as it gives you what you want on a creative level that's all that really counts.

The worst thing about Virtools is I can only publish for the web for free, EVERYTHING else needs additional licensing, i.e. a percentage of the project cost.

IPete2.

What did you defacate? (no idea how THATS spelt...)

for the money you spend on buying Virtools IPete you could have hired team of 5 artists from russia and have them make all content you'll ever need for your game :)

Btw Mike, how much does TV3d cost and where do you sign up for beta? Did you pay something to get into beta or did they invite you because you are likeable and reliable guy who will give them good feedback on beta??? Answers now or we throw you into the isolation cell again, both you and Pete!!!

hahaha... well, i would've liked to belive that they let me into the beta because i AM such a likeable guy... and so good looking, too...

...but alas, it was my $150 and credit card ok that got me in.

you don't need any special qualifications... license 6.2 and you get access to the beta as well...

the $150 dollar license allows you commercial marketing for a single project, and if you want, an unlimited license is available for $500... make and sell all the games you want...

read my post on 3D Engine Comparisons i'm whipping up if you are thinking about.... uh, defecting :)

--Mike

>uh, defecting :)

Are you asking me to join you Red?

No not defecting, but I was waiting for 6.5 to see what it can do. I won't abondon Blitz ship for a long time I hope. But I might get interested in Tv3d 6.5 if it can do some stuff.

Btw when using TV3D you code in c++ or was it so that they support number of languages?

no... no... no.... i'm not gonna be responsible for you being thrown outta your home when your wife finds out that you've blown another wad of credit card cash on another 3D engine :)

seriously though...

i think you are gonna be impressed with the capabilites of 6.5... new networking code, plus DX9 graphics effects and ODE physics (?)... exactly what 'MAX promises... but TV3D will be making this available a lot sooner than 'MAX and the 3D module... and that is one of the main reasons why i've chosen to 'defect'...

you can code it in a wide varitey of languages... c++, VB, delphi, some of the .Net languages as well...

i'm playing with VB now (amazing how much i forgot, but it came back real fast), but i did a lil hello world app in c++... really easy to pick up.

no official 6.5 demos yet... a few user developed ones...

if you have doubts, you might wanna wait until the 6.5 beta goes public... that way you can make a more informed decision...

if you are a lil adventurous, and interested in getting up to speed before 6.5 goes public, you have access to 6.2 and the full dev sdk... as well as the beta...


--Mike

I'm defecting too. I decided to start playing with Torque last night since I'm really starting to see B3D as a dead-end. Hopefully I'll have a decent understanding as to how it works within a couple of days. Thats the point where i get all high on the knowledge and start to learn real stuff :) I can't wait.

During the time, I hope to also learn more C++. C++ and Torque are *totally* new to me, c++ slightly less so- I managed to init OGL in there once. haha :P

The problem with using VB is that it's not cross platform- Thats a key feature for me, so how you're doing it red wouldn't be that beneficial to me, though I will try it, for fun! :)

good luck Cyg... i found Torque to be really great in the sense that you don't have to rewrite a lot of stuff... it's already done for you...

and i also found Torque to be bad in that you don't have to rewrite a lot of stuff... it's already done for you...

...but finding out what's already done and how it's done can be a daunting task... getting even the simplest things done, like mousepicking for instance, can be a real pain...

in spite of all that... seeing a game you did running with 10 people from all over the globe playing it... on a pc or a mac... with no lag at all (practically none)... and you didn't have to write a single line of network code...

... well, that's what keeps me coming back for more Torque abuse :)


--Mike

..hey Cyg..welcome to Torque familly :).. hey its not advertising message :))

I was playing Supernova with 16 people in Blitz, off a 1mb net connection.... That was a ton of work. What failed was the controls :)

Torque networking is however, what makes me interested.

Thanks for the welcome.


*bows*

hehe, man! I need to fix my eyes. Everytime I glance through the list this thread looks like its titled:

OK... I'm Defecating (again) :)

Lol, i already posted about it saying that :P

sorry man... i meant to answer this a while back, and it slipped past me...

the bumpmap solutions doesn't give me a decent looking dot3 representation... i tried it, but the results weren't to impressive...

i generate a normal map and use iMeshBumpCreate... and i don't let the engine create the normal map.

that'll work.. and it looks wayyy better...


Jeremy... i've still got my TGE license... and a few more bucks in the bank account... TSE is still a consdieration...

as is 'MAx3D...



--Mike