So many people have a prejudiced view of Basic

I'm so tired of c++, java & python-users with their prejudiced view on basic.
They always bring up issues which applies to BASIC-languages made 20 years ago.

Issues like...
* Extensive use of GOTO's
* Slow performance due to runtime interpreting
* Bloated because a large amount of runtime-files are needed
* Bad coding habits and poor structuring of code

I recently had a discussion where a python-user basically said that since BASIC doesn't support XML-parsing, MySql and Regex parsing I would do best in going with python instead.
*YUCK!*

Well, my opinion is:
Use python if you like it, it's your loss not mine. ;)

ps.
It feels good to talk about Basic in a forum where the forum users doesn't attack you with insane statements about switching to <insert any language with weird syntax here>

*Cough* GameDev.NET *Cough*

Thing is in Blitz there is no need to used Goto (and anyway, what's so bad about using it occasionally if it's documented?). Blitz is compiled so it's not slow by any means. There are no run-time files needed unless you interface with a special .dll. Bad coding habits and poor structure is down to the individual not the language. There that should provide some "ammo".

Ummm,

It surprises me just how many "professional" programmers think that about basic too. You'd have thought people would have moved on/grown up from that.

and, i've seen a few cases of "Dont use blitz, It's interpretted!". most of these people dont understand what the word means!

well.. I *think* they're starting to "open their eyes"...
Atleast I'm seeing VB being more and more "accepted" in professional "environments"...
So that (kind of) makes for a step in the right direction (I think.. hehe)

Ha ha! I don't use BASIC I use MAX!

Other than syntax, what's the difference between Pascal and Blitzbasic? I've the impression they're more or less the same languages, just different syntax.
Would it be legal to say that Blitz equals Pascal?

Well that's quite a big difference, but I guess they are similar in that they don't support objects. I use Delphi which is OO Pascal for my "proper" job.

What I mean is: the ppl blacktalking Basic (because it is Basic) would prolly have nothing against Pascal.. if Blitz more or less equals Pascal.. why not tell 'em that? If it's just Pascal with Basic-flavour ...

I see, I guess so but they might sniff at PASCAL too it being a sort of "learn at college" thing.

Brainf*ck ^_^


Grey: And how does Blitz2d/3d/+ compare to C? (not C++)
(about C-pointers, if you're willing to work with banks, you've the benefit of pointers all the way ^_^)

> Atleast I'm seeing VB being more and more "accepted" in professional "environments"...

But even it still gets the cold shoulder, in many shops the VB programmers are not considered the equal of the C,C++ programmers.

It's always been the same. The prejudice against STOS (Atari ST) and AMOS (Amiga) was there, even if a game was really good (which was kind of rare, I must admit).

Ironically enough, BASIC was originally a compiled language anyway.

It's also ironic that people think they're being really smart by programming their games in C/C++ when they could be getting the same thing done a lot quicker in Blitz.

Thing is AMOS simply wasn't as power as Blitz, but it was better than SEUCK of course.

>and, i've seen a few cases of "Dont use blitz, It's
>interpretted!". most of these people dont understand what
>the word means!

Yeah, I remember seeing that too! I even replied once 'Blitz3D is compiled!', and the the 'expert' on the the other end made this brilliant counter...

'All BASICS are interpreted!'

>It's also ironic that people think they're being really
>mart by programming their games in C/C++ when they could
>be getting the same thing done a lot quicker in Blitz.

Yes, they show off their months of hard work, a few low polygon models whizzing around on a textured plane, whereas my project took less time and has high polygon models in low flight over massive canyons and terrain. But their demo is better because it's programmed in C++ which is useful whereas mine is programmed in BASIC which we all know is an evolutionary dead end!

When will I learn!


Andy

In the early days people could rightly ridicule BASIC programs because the machine code equivalents were 100 times better. That simply isn't true anymore. The main reason Blitz products can't compete with (for argument's sake) the latest Electronic Arts title is because they have HUGE teams of coders, artists, musicians and so on, whereas most Blitz projects are either one person efforts or a small team at best.

Get the same size team working solidly at a Blitz3D game for several months and you would have an extremely special product, "BASIC" based or not.

They do kinda have a point tho'.
This is certainly true, when compared to languages like Java, C# and Python, which more or less enforce a certain level of structure. IMHO however, C++ allows for hands down the worst programmings habbits ever.

Indeed. Otherwise they would realise that Python, Java and all .Net languages are interpreted aswell.

Well MySQL (or better, ODBC), XML and regular expressions would be nice to have in BlitzMAX, and if you need them, then you are better off using Python.

It is kinda. The point is that it just doesn't matter anymore, because computers are 1000 times more powerful, and in todays market, speed is of the greater importance. You're going to tell me that a successful company is going to employ a team of 6 programers for a year to do a task that 4 could do in a couple of weeks?

Well, they will actually, which is probably why they're folding left and right, unable to keep up with competition.

That's a fair comment. You can get away with programs that aren't as highly optimised (i.e. BASIC style languages), because the computers are so much faster.

I wouldn't say BASIC isnt as well optimised. More that we're relying on the programmer of the BASIC dialect we use to use efficient code.

The contempt for BASIC seems to mainly come from a certain generation (mine) of programmers who almost certainly started their journey with BASIC. The fact that the acronym stands for Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instrucion Code just sticks in your throat after you've reached a level you believe is beyond that of a beginner.

At this point, you would get desperate to distance yourself from this 'beginner' label, and go in search of some coder kudos - C, C++, Asm... anything that's not BASIC.

Having achieved a 'move' to another language, extreme snobbery sets in. You can feel superior 'looking down' on other coders using 'beginner' languages i.e. ANYTHING with so much as a sniff of BASIC about it. Oh, the feeling of superiority!

At this point, a Rubicon has been crossed: 'going back' to using a BASIC-like language is just too dreadful to consider for some people - no matter how advanced, user-friendly, fast etc. that language may be. Logic goes out the window; it's all about ego and self-importance.

So, all that's left for coders like this is to glean some small pleasure from sniping at BASIC coders, from their ivory towers. Sad.

I kinda went down this road somewhat during my 'journey', so I know. Then, at some point - maybe age-related - I realized I don't give a toss what language I use, or what others think. The easier, more productive, enjoyable, the better. Blitz fitted the bill nicely, thank you. :)

Perhaps I used the wrong word. I mean it isn't as low-level, to put it another way. I'm not knocking BASIC programmers, by the way. Without BASIC on computers like the Spectrum and C64 to get people started, we wouldn't have half as many coders (in any language) as we do today.

I say put the work out and it stands on its own. If it plays/looks/performs better it doesn't matter what it is written in.

I'm interested in the largest program someone has ever written in any Blitz version. I'm having this basic vs c++ conversations as well on IRC channels, and then I get the arguement like: "first write something with 100.000 lines of optimized code, then we talk"

Since my apps don't have that many lines (typically 1000..4000 orso) , I can't really judge this..

So, how does Basic survive giga-sources? (not in terms of performance, but in terms of readability, reusability, ease to continue after half a year etc.)

CS_TBL:
The point I would make is that you don't need 100,000 lines of code to do the same thing in a BASIC-like laguage like blitz.

C++ confuses the crap out of me layout-wise. Blitz? I could come back to in 5 years and continue it, as long as i'd kept to plan.

I'm not really referring to a game orso (for which you could indeed use the game'ish commands of Blitz), but to things that just require pure code, in any language..
Think of something like Povray, just the raytracer itself, not the editor. It reads a .pov script and outputs a bitmap image, that's just pure code, no single 'nice game commnand' comes in .. I dunno how many lines it is, but it's a lot for sure.

I posted my game on gamedev recently and did not get a single comment. I looked at a few others and commented, and sadly, I could not get into the game of any of the ones I tried because of bugs and compatability issues which didn't matter because they where written in C++.

My game though, wasn't worthy of a single comment.

On the other hand on another forum recently I used the fact that I wrote my game in BASIC as a selling point, the concept was - look I did *this* in BASIC...

It is worthy of comment (if you mean your sailing game, as it looks excellent), but it's a shame if it was ignored because it was written in an "inferior" language.

What's also cool about BASIC is you could do things like this in Boots or WHSmith on their display computers:

10 PRINT "This shop sucks!"
20 GOTO 10

Ah... the fun I had when I was about 8 years old. ;)

Not capable of XML parsing?!
HAH!
http://www.blitzbasic.com/codearcs/codearcs.php?code=1393

Avon, you forgot the FLASH 1 - for speccy BASIC, anyway. :P

Avon, lol! Yeah.

I had this science caravan down that was usnig a BBC to run a machine that sorted cotton-wool reels.

When nobody was looking, i popped in Elite and hit Shift+Boot :)

while i think that there is still a 'prejudice' against BASIC... i don't think that it is as pronounced as it once was...

the current BASIC languages are quite capable on many levels, as far as i see em... Visual Basic and BlitzMax just to name two...

i may be wrong, but i don't think that that was the reason you didn't get any comments Becks... maybe in a few days... i'm sure that your game will receive some notice... regardless of the language it was written in...


ahhh... maybe i'm wrong.. maybe there is a sense that BASIC is still a kiddie language...


--Mike

The 'B' in BASIC is evil..

hehe... I never thought of that! That would have been even better.


I remember getting severely done by my science/computer teacher for forever hitting SHIFT+BREAK whenever the school BBC was running anything. I didn't like the BBC, and had a Speccy & C64 at home, which were far superior in my young mind (for games that is). Having said that, I think Elite was one of the few games that was actually best on the humble beeb, out of the 8-bit versions.

Yes, the B should be officially changed from "Beginners" to "Basic". Or simply removed. There's nothing wring with Blitz ASIC! Easy abbreviation to say :)

I dunno....there something about VB that irks me, not that its really that weak or limited...but it just....sucks in general.

Once in a while, we have to use it at work cause the US Navy still requires it for certain projects, oddly enough. But once you program in C#, nothing else is ever really the same...not even C++. BlitzMax reminds me more of Pascal/C with some BASIC keywords.....so I actually like it!

problem is, ASIC is already "ALL SYMBOLIC INSTRUCTION CODE"- heh.

Its about time a new one came around.

Theres a word for recursive acronyms isn't there i.e. if the B stood for BASIC.

Actually, by the looks of it, BASIC was more ASIC than the real ASIC was!!!! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASIC_programming_language

well, just 'Blitz' would suit the issue here, Blitzbasic hints towards being a BASIC ... Blitzplus doesn't, and BlitzMax doesn't either..

There's a sentence I never thought I'd see. ;)

Its not just in programming languages that 'snobbery' rears its ugly head, it is prevalent in ALL areas of computing.

Graphics...

"OOH yoo use Truespace, how quaint. I use Max as I prefer a real package compared to a toy."

My reply, was Yes, but my Truespace does what I want it to do and it is'nt Warez.

His Reply....'Silence'

2D Graphics... same as above, but with Paintshop Pro and Photoshop.

Web Dev

Its the same... Dreamweaver this, Dreamweaver that... I will stick to Netobjects Fusion thank yoo very glad, It does what I want it to do and Quickly too.

I don't measure the size of my dick, by what software I use.

The same goes for programming, use the language that can do the task and that your most comfortable with.

Leave the Greasy nerds skulking in thier shady world of Cyber snobbery and get on with being productive.

I truly cannot be doing with these types, the majority of which are utterly incompetant, Limited by their tunnel vision and probably developing (or not) on a warez copy. More than few the ones I have met in the last twenty odd years fit into that majority.

Cheers

Garion

As with law, professionals in technology wish their methods to be obsfucated. If programming or modeling was easily accessible to everyone, they would lose their elite status. Thus, they wish the process to be as wasteful and complicated as possible, so that they may remain valuable.

My thoughts exactly James. Take JAVA... Its very fast when it runs but it's a nightmare to learn if you are a beginner(worse than C++). JAVA code needs to be run inside some sort of interpreter as well as being compiled before-hand. Development takes for ever....

I prefer BlitzPlus simply because its so easy to knock up a little app when you need one. I just wish it had more gadgets. (hint, hint).

Even back in the early-mid 80's, my TI99 4/A had an extended BASIC cartridge available that compiled to machine code and it was blistering fast compared to the built in BASIC.

The problem is many BASIC languages are written by indie developers, and I guess it is easier to write an interpreted BASIC than a BASIC that compiles to machine code.

Since we are on the subject of programmer stigmas, I just have to point out that Python is indeed interpreted, but Java and .Net languages are JIT'd. Big difference in both performance and implementation.

Unfortunately, I think this, just like the "basic sucks" one, and will be tossed around by programmers for the foreseeable future.

WOAAHHH!!! Havent heard that word in a while!!

Cooooorrr, I loved extended basic on the TI-99 4/A it was well ahead of its time.

It's only snobby programmers who turn their nose up at the mention of BASIC. I've never undersood it, nor ever will.

Personally if an application is good at what I want it to do, or a game I play is enjoyable. I never give a seconds thought to what it was coded in, it simply doesn't matter.

Main point being, your customers / audience will not give a damn either. I write apps for a living and have used VB, Delphi and Blitz+ and they never ask questions like "what was it written in". They just want something that does the job they paid for.

I always groan when I come across BASIC haters. They always have this attitude that if you can't programme C/C++ you're not a real programmer.

I've always hated C/C++ I find it a very ugly outdated language.

Funnier still perhaps, is that people who program in one BASIC will mock people who program in a different one...

So sadly true...

Although, I don't mock the people who program in languages like Dark BASIC, but rather, the language itself. The people who use it have clearly established some kind of connection with it. That is something that I must commend them for, because I could not possibly do it myself ;)

My 2 cents.

I like Blitz3D, it's easy to write demo's in and it's more stable than DarkBasic Pro.

I like DarkBasic Pro, it's easy to write in too and you can experiment with DX 9 stuff.

I like C++, it's frigging fast at execution and once you've writtten a clean function, you need never write it again.

Bottom line IMHO, every language has things it does well, and things it does poorly. Anyone who is prejudiced against another programming language is narrow-minded and will never be the best programmer they can be, until they give up their silly hang-ups.

..well..I'm C++ user, but, I do agree that today, peoples should me more careful about judging basic...anyway, for every proud C++ coder I suggest to take a look at PowerBasic compiler for windows from many aspects..including speed...they will be surprised how C++ is slow in comparison with this interesting piece of basic..

When someone tells you how BASIC is not a good language, point him/her to the pages of HTBasic (www.htbasic.com)

It's basically the latest version of HP BASIC also known throughout the years as HP Extended BASIC or HP Mountain BASIC. It started it's life way back in the seventies on Hewlett-Packard's graphics and measurement workstations and included stuff most of (if any) of today's languages can only dream about.

Imagine writing a graphically intensive program which showed everything on the screen and then have the same program (with the change of only one line) drawing all that stuff onto a plotter. Not to mention that the BASIC program was controlling and taking measurements from myriad of various HP test&measurement instruments.

I still have the old HP-9845B workstation and I am quite happily using HP BASIC for some serious scientific research programming.

Basic not good... They don't know what they are talking about.

Barney

Generally I use this argument to see exactly how much knowledge a person has (in terms of IT).

Someone with a decent grasp of IT and development will realise that it's not really the language, and more the code which determines a good program or not.

Sure C++ can hit the metal, but it'll take close to 4-5 times longer in it's lifetime to develop / debug to say Delphi or VB.

In terms of BASIC, anyone who came to me at interview not knowing when it's a good choice or not wouldn't get a job.

depends what kind of job... wouldn't it... and IT guys in the last place i worked, were not the programmer types... they were the server keepers and wire runners...


as far as VB is concerned... as well as Delphi and, to a lesser degree c++ there are 2 types... users, who use VB or Delphi, plop down controls from the pallets onto a form... add a lil logic to em... and consider themselves ace programmers...

ask em to build a control... ask em the difference between early and late binding... ask em to whip up a VB app to interrogate a remote database and have that app deployable over the internet...

hey... ask em to explain the difference between an outer join and an inner join... has nothing to do with VB, Delphi, or c++... but it'll give ya some idea where they've been...


then you start separating the 'real' programmers, from the VB and Delphi users...


most of these people are capable of learning and using c++ if they already don't know it, and doing so in a relatively short period of time, with no trouble at all... mostly, because they have an understanding of what's going on outside the 'visual' box...


so, as i see it, there is very lil difference in them and the 'hardened real programmers' who already use c++...


i guess it all boils down to anyone who's ever read a Wrox book... he/she is probably a capable coder... nop matter what language they choose to work in...


ahhh... who really gives a... heck, anyway...


--Mike

Now now red... That almost implies that VB/Delphi programmers aren't real programmers. I consider myself one of those "ace" programmers. Have done everything you mention. Internet deployed remote database app, built a control (a tile map control for vb game programming no less... think it might still be available on some freeware sites even), and work on SQL stored procedures daily for a back end IRS third party return filing solution.

(then again I havne't read most of this thread... I just did a quick skim and read your last post. I might be totally off base on the point you are trying to make. :) )

I'm interested in the largest program someone has ever written in any Blitz version... write something with 100.000 lines ... then we talk"
...not in terms of performance, but in terms of readability, reusability....

I definitly agree with CS_TBL.
I was happy with BlitzBasic until I tried to implement some algo's taken from "Programming Game AI by example " by Bukland
A nightmare.
I had to switch back to C++ and since Blitz does not support C++ while the C_like Max does not supply a 3d engine , I must confess I passed to the competition even though it was a painful decision .
It is true that performances are no longer so important but if you can not rely on data incapsulation it is really hard, I do not mean impossibile, to write something even much less than 100.000 lines.
I do hope that a Blitz SDK for C++ \ C# will be soonest released

I am estimating 3D World Studio to be somewhere around 35,000 lines.

That's the thing about BASIC, you dont need 100,000 lines to do anything. If you write a program that long then you *probably* have an awful code layout and terrible grasp of the language.

Now somebodies going to post an exception that proves the rule i'm sure...

yeah K... you're a lil off... as a matter of fact, that is the point i'm making... or trying to make... i think...

what i am saying is... that it doesn't matter what dialect you are conversant in... especially if it's a contest between VB, Delphi vs c++...

what matters is the knowledge of what's actually going on... under the pretty guis and control palettes that VB and Delphi shield most 'users' from...

and, accpet it or not, there are many VB and Delphi people who assert that they are ace programmers... and would never entertain the idea that they are not... but they are merely users of VB... with just a notch more knowledge than the user of the app that they are putting together...

not a bad thing at all though... in its own right...

and it is this regard that, if there is indeed any legitimacy to the superiority claims of some c++ coders... that there may be a hint of validity...


but the point that i was making... trying to make... is that the difference between a programmer, a good programmer, and a really good programmer, lies not in the language of choice... but in the knowledge of the environment that that person is coding against...

directx... sql... networking... the internet... etc... the CLR... .NET... and many others...

knowledge of how these things work... and how to interface your ideas, regardless of the tool you choose to implement those ideas...

... that is the yeardstick for grading that i use.

--Mike

How can you know that you don't need 100.000 lines?

Take the Povray-example.. I've no idea about the sizes of raytracers, but Povray is typically something that doesn't require a GUI or anything, it just loads a script, and outputs a BMP.
It has a rather good script-parser, and ofcourse truckloads of math.. I guess the commands used are typical for any language.. no typical C++-only stuff other than classes/pointers orso.

for the brave:

http://www.povray.org/redirect/www.povray.org/ftp/pub/povray/Official/Windows/povwin_s.zip

Because in 24 years of programming games and utilities including bespoke corporate systems I dont think i've ever written anything over 15,000 or so lines of code in BASIC and i've done some pretty complex and fully featured systems.

It's simply a matter of scale, if the original point was being made with a figure of 25,000 or 30,000 I wouldn't have questioned it - but 100,000 is the BASIC equivellent of reading an entire library as opposed to 1 book.

Bearing in mind that a BASIC command is comparable to numerous commands in a 2GL language, for arguments sake lets say 5. The comparison then is half a million lines of code, which is bloatware by any stretch of the imagination.

The original comment was in sentiment comparing a 100,000 line BASIC program directly with a 100,000 line program in a 2GL, which is not a direct comparison in my opinion - else I wouldn't be using BASIC.

Also consider that the same demo coded C will be about 20 times the size of the code in Blitz. So your 100,000 lines of C code equals about 5000 lines of Blitz.

Yeah, I have a deployed app right now that handles qik checks (those advance checks you get when you file your taxes for you US people) that has a ton of network code, database code, probably 30 different screens for data entry, reporting, etc... It's one of the largest VB apps I've had the (dis)pleasure (depending on my mood) of writing. And it weighs in at 50,000-55,000 lines of code. 100,000 lines is pretty hefty.

Any BASIC would be really great ... if you also had the C++ code behind it ;) This way when you need the low level access you've got it.

Yeah Red: I've been using Delphi for 9 years now and I am definitely NOT a drag n drop type guy. The application I've been working on and selling to the book trade is a client/server piece of business management software which uses SQL (inner and outer joins ;-)) and is over 300,000 (no sh*t) lines of code. It is a fairly rapid language to develop in but you know it still takes hours to do fairly simple stuff, but yes less time than C++. Having interviwed many candidates I know exactly what you mean by the drag n drop brigade thinking they are real programmers, but I guess you've got to start somewhere.

hehe, Just thought of the movie Indiana Jones:Raiders of the lost ark.
In the scene where Indy meets the huge guy who starts showing off with his sword and Indy just picks up his gun and shoot him.
I think the swordguy is a typical c++ user(ambitious, doing things the hard way) and Indy is a typical BASIC user(a bit lazy, doing things the easy way) :)

I don't think anyone intelligent will be prejudiced against any one language.

Harrison ford actually wrote that scene in himself. He told Spielberg that he wanted to that: it was entirely a genuine piece of acting as well because Ford was sick all day with the runs and just could NOT be arsed fighting with this geezer :) it's a classic scene and I really like it.

interestng factoid, I loved the scene when I first saw it and it has been copied (less well) in many other movies.

A long time ago, someone (I forget who) claimed that a good programmer could turn out 10 lines of bug free code every day, regardless of language.

Thus it stands to reason that someone working in an abstract high-level language, is going to be more productive than someone coding away on punchcards.

The guy programming in assembly will get less lines of bug free assembly written, than a guy working in BlitzMAX, where one line of code, will typically translate to several lines of assembly.

I believe that the 10 lines of bug free code stands although it's probably closer to 20 lines in such a high level language, regardless though we can see where the person is coming from.

I've always said, use the right tool for the job, you can't give better advice really :)

I also like Sweenies's example from Spielberg's movie
Often the word "Hobby" gets along with the word "Masochism"

I also agree with Halo :

"they wish the process to be as wasteful and complicated as possible, so that they may remain valuable."

It is a situation that we meet everyday on businees not only in game programming or modelling

However I wonder how someone seem to deny evident advantages , imho, of C++ vs BlitzBasic3D
Blizt is poorly structured ,if your program grows in size and complexity you have tons of functions and global variables scattered everywhere in your code
Ok I dont' mean you can not live with (The excellent CS is an example) but I dont' think it is the optimal solution, either.

...is it so hard to fit all functions scatered all around in to one simple Include file ??...

probably not... but what have you accomplished by doing that...


--Mike

..well..probably cleaner situation then one Albertio mention about as something 'bad'...anyway, as I'm mention before...I really like C++ (I'm using DEV C++), but for everyones whos doubting in to Basic languages capabilities of any kind, including speed, take a look at Power Basic...extremly fast, faster than any code generated by C++ compiler...

I also noticed on gamedev.net that when people post something made in blitz and dont say it was done in blitz others will assume it was done in C++ or something and give it AWESOME PRAISE ! But when you mention its blitz everyone goes away and ignores. Why? Because programmers dont value quality of a product, they value the work that was put in which is utterly stupid. It's like giving more value to an inprecisely built car made with 1800s technology just because it took 100 times as much time. More control? Yeah right, thats overkill. You can polish any blitz game/app just the way you like it. Need extra glitz 3d graphics features? Max is coming then lets talk. And all that parsing you mentioned, you can do it in blitz if you know how to code it. Blitz can access files down to byte level you just need to code it like you would in any lanaguage.

I put all globals in one top part of the file as well as types. I haven't coded much in c++ but i find it a bit harder to find where everything is in there, tbh. Takes more getting used to?

The first programming language I used was Python, then I switched to BASIC

I tried to learn C++ at one point, and the conclusion I came to was that it was needlessly complex and not worth my time

I fail to see any advantages to a language that leaves everything up to the developer to do, all it does is drag development times out and increase the ammount of bugs

Understand my stance on this though, I'm not an ace programmer and I would never claim to be, I came into programming purely to work on the games I'm now working on and I have no ambitions beyond that, I know only what I need to make my games

@Alberto - I think that structure in BASIC is much more the responsibility of the programmer than in lower generation languages. Poor coding is poor coding, good coding is good coding. Poor layout is poor layout, good layout is good layout.

My functions are organised into sections and I use dummy functions with _____ characters to seperate each section - it's all very organised really...

Yeah, you can't really blame BASIC for the structuring of your code. Globals, in particular, should be kept to a minimum - that's just good programming practice. Always try and keep your data/variables on a "need to know" scope.

True, BASIC may not provide the whizzy encapsulation methods of OOP, but it's still possible to write structured code with it.

i think i see what Alberto means... BASIC, by it's very nature... and BlitzBasic in particular, lends itself to unstructured coding practices...

there are no real mechanisms to encourage structured programming... and if structured programming is achieved, it usually is the result of the coder going out of his/her way to make it so...

i guess then, that that would have me in sort of agreement with is view... a dependence on functions and minimized use of globals alone, to facilitate structured programming practices, is, in my opinion, not really enough...

as a matter of fact, i actually break the rule of reduced use of globals, by making practically every instance of a 'class' a global... and i'd like to think that my coding methods are structured...

take a quick look...

Global theHead.GameObject
Global Ocean.GameObject
Global Sub1.GameObject

Function InitGame()
  theHead =createObject("ACTOR",10,60,0,"c:\progra~1\blitz3d\media\caveman043.b3d")

  SetControlObject(theHead)
  AttachViewToObject(theHead)

  Ocean=CreateObject("OCEAN",0,0,0,"..\wave1b.bmp")

  Sub1=CreateObject("OHIOSUBMARINE",0,0,0, "c:\progra~1\VIRTUAL Sailor\boats\ohio\boat.x")

End Function

this is all i need for a simple submarine demo...

now of course all of this is dependent on a large collection of source library code files that define the classes for these objects... and do a lil setup... this source is included in something i call GameClass.bb, which is the source that is compiled... and what brings everything together...

this is a screen of the output for just that lil bit of code...



using the game libraries i'm putting together, i can write a game as simple as demonstrated above... or i should be able to :), i'll know for sure in about a week...

but so far, everything seems to be working... it's an object oriented (loosely OO) set of components, all with their own set of behaviors... and, for the most part, expecting and interacting with other objects...

i know it's a bit of a hack, but for me, this is what structured programming is about... well, as best as Blitz3D allows... code reuse, encapsulation (of sorts), modular, componentized, simplitized :)

it allows me to focus on what i'm doing at any one given time... today i will make a boat class... and not worry about the rest of the project... and the boat will be coded so that it will integrate with the whole structure (there's that word again :) ) of the game engine described in GameClass.bb...

so tommorrow, say i want to make a fishing game.. well, i already have an ocean, a boat, a player, and a sky... all i need do is whip up a couple of fish classes... stick em in the game, and the game is practically done...

nothing is ever wasted... fish can be reused in another game... the player... the subs... the actors... just change the meshes...

it sorta makes Blitz coding fun again :)

--Mike

Uh ... I'm sure the programmers would give Mark props. However, why would they give you props on the code ... all you did was write a few lines of BASIC which any C++ programmer could do with ease.

A better analogy would be someone looking at that old car which someone else built and raced versus some rich jerk who went out and bought a pre-made fast car. Even if the custom built car isn't as fast or whatever its driver/builder will get more respect with regard to technical props than the rich guy who just went out and bought a Ferrari.

Really though a Ferrari would be like the Unreal 3 Engine ... Blitz is more like some sort of rice burner (Scion, Honda, etc...) or something and lower level programmers look at what you've made and attribute it to the tool and the programmer of said tool instead of you. For the most part they are right.

Game players won't really care ... they just want a fun game. However, if you expect to impress programmers then you have to do something they couldn't do or would have a hard time doing. Using Blitz ... in terms of programming you're not doing anything they couldn't do with ease.

I hate to say it but for as long as I know BASIC has always been a gateway language and pretty much everyone knows that you can't really go anywhere with it alone. It's great to learn BASIC and then move on to bigger and better things but don't wallow in BASIC past the point that you don't need to anymore because it won't get you to the top.

Rather I should say ... it won't get me to the top of where I want to be. If someone ports their Blitz game to Xbox or PS2 then let me know how you did it without any lower level languages assisting you ... I'd be interested to know.

to some extent, allthough a lot of experienced coders are surprised when they see something decent done in blitz. A lot of people were amazed at what Cygnus achieved in blitz as far as the driving model and AI in the racer engine. And more so when the game didn't look too bad.

Will probably release a playable demo of it soon, it's pretty cool since the AI is pretty aware and better than most current commercial games.

Saying that, it could really do with a better engine that doesn't restrict you quite as much as blitz does. But it's still really quite impressive by any standards.

Yeah, but then there's that scene in Star Wars where Darth Vader uses the force to choke his skeptical lazy officer.

C++ is the force ... BASIC is just a Death Star. We all know how that ended up ;)

All I can say is: "Write a BASIC Script Compiler and Virtual Machine and your whole concept about HIGHER programming languages will change."

Its all about syntax, features, and the compiler in the end...

Jeremy, in my view you've missed the target by so far you've shot somebody in the stands.

It doesnt matter how hard you make programming for yourself by using complex tools (often to do a simple task).

There are people amongst every programming community who can produce good results. There are more who can achieve average results, and there's a bucket load of prople who can only write sub-par programs.

This pyramid exists on all development platforms everywhere.

The point of this post is that there are people doing excellent things in BASIC which other programmers immediately snub just because of it's BASIC origin.

Now forgive me if i'm wrong but...



...isn't the simple fact that high quality output is the domain of only the top members of each community evidence that the final quality of what we make is down to us as programmers, and not the tools we use.

I could write Hello World in C++. That doesn't make it difficult or a great game.[writeln('hello world'); if I recall].

I've seen absolute tripe - stuff I could do in 90 minutes - get patted on the back relentlessly by some snobs whilst BASIC games get ignored purely because of the icon on their .exe, and by snobs in I am referring more than anywhere else too gamedev in particular.

getting good results in BASIC isn't any easier than getting good results in C++. Either you can make a good game or your cant - the only effect the tool makes is whether you give up before you finish it or not.

Use the right tool for the right job. A mouse driver? A lower-level language like Assembly or C is the right tool. A high-level project like a game? A game-centered Basic like Blitz3D or BlitzMax is the way to go.

From Steve McConnell's Code Complete, 1993, Microsoft Press, p. 46:


From Steve McConnell's Code Complete 2nd ed., 2004, Microsoft Press, p. 62:




It's clear that C++ and Java users should stick to little projects like keyboard interfaces and not waste their time with anything as high-level as games. They're building skyscrapers with popsicle sticks or Legos (which is possible, but foolish). Python users have a better case, but I haven't seen any game-based flavors of Python.

Just let the doubters fritter away their time using inferior tools for games. Meanwhile, go out and build something quickly and easily in a language specifically designed for it. Results are what count.

I disagree completely. For one thing C++ is a more difficult beast ... which is why you aren't using it yet and you are defending BASIC.

As far as games go ... yes you can make something good in BASIC or C++ and the gamer won't care ... and more important for the topic it's more a matter of game design skill and production values then programming ... usually. Of course if you're going to try and make something truly amazing then you also need amazing programming ... and BASIC isn't amazing!

You mention a pyramid to describe the skill levels of programmers of each development platform. Well ... as it works with programmers walking up the pyramid BASIC is often the first step ... and C++ among others are above that. So BASIC is kind of the sub-par player in this pyramid.

Asm.
/ \
C++ Coding
/ \
BASIC Programs



Yes and no ... everytime I produce something of relative enough high quality in one domain I look for the next more challenging but equally more rewarding domain. If you're still fixated on the domain of BASIC then that's fine ... I felt content with it at one point also. However, now I realize that it's time to move on. BASIC will never do all I need it to do and I'll never make the highest quality product I can possibly make using BASIC. The quality of the final product isn't just game design, graphics, user input, etc... there's a lot more to a game then just what you can 'gameplayically' make it do.

As I said ... C++ is the force and BASIC is the Death Star both are powerful when attempting to achieve one type of goal (destroying planets or creating games) but in the end the Death Star is based on the force and the force can completely overshadow it when used correctly.

I'd like to point out that games should actually be created with high level scripting and WYSIWYG editors (which you'd have to have whether using BASIC or C++). However, there should be an accessible C++ backbone to your game creation tools so that you can actually control the whole project when you've learned enough. If you use BASIC and you don't have access to the source code like with Blitz then ultimately you're only going to go so far ... which of course is fine for a certain point in your career.

I'm not anti-BASIC or anything. It's great ... but trying to impress an experienced C++ programmer with it is like an infant trying to impress a pro athlete with its crawling skills. Sure both can get from point A to point B ... but the infant is not playing on the same field.

..well..I would apprechiate if you can show me what Power basic cant do better than any C++, including access to low level assembly.....I will not talk about smaller and faster executables generated by PB becouse PB is faster..I would say if your C++ is force, then PB is Luke Skywalker whos kick Vader and rest of arogant j*rks at the end...

I've been programming avidly for 24 years and pick up languages easily, I may not be the brightest rock in the mountain range but i've been sat on my perch for a long time and experience does have it's benefits.

I finished my first Blitz3D game, which was good enough to make a magazine coverdisk, a day after buying the language. I've used C++ and found the datahandling a doddle, but I did not persevere as far as anything graphical and havn't touched it again since - I considered it the wrong tool for the job because I write games as a hobby, at home, by myself.


The reason I use BASIC is out of choice.

I think that I can code the ass off a lot of C++ programmers (i'm not implying you), in fact I know I can because i've seen the dross that gets knocked out by some of the C++ community. I can get better results using whatever tools I choose then a lot of the shortsighted wonna-be's who limit themselves to "professional" tools.

I've not intentionally defended BASIC above, what i've been defending is games written in BASIC. If they're good games then why shouldn't a C++ programmer take note on open programming forums if not for the game than for the very reasons you quote...

...If I can make a game using my "Death Star" that dribbles over some Padawan and his force skills, then doesn't that meen i'm doing more with less and correspondingly deserve more attention?

Of course not, what matters is the final result. The fact that some BASIC games dribble all over some C++ games is the reason that they deserve attention and not because the BASIC programmer who wrote it is clearly leagues above average.

Whether you believe it or not there's some C++ programmers who could learn a lot from some of the BASIC programmers in the various communities - just because a doughnut programmes in C++ doesn't make him anything other than a doughnut.

Therein lies the issue, because there's a lot of doughnuts in all the programming communities including the C++ world. In fact, as C++ is the "professional" tool i've found a lot more doughnuts on C++ boards because of the "wonnabe" effect.

So I consider your pyramid of C++ programmers being above BASIC programmers rather laughable. It might apply to your own progression, but it certainly doesn't cover all programmers or indeed anywhere near the majority.

One thing to remember is that coding a game in C++ and what is essentially making a MOD for an existing architecture are two entirely different things.

Most game engines are either too focused or the other extreme generic and limiting in their scope and the variety of games you can produce with them. Leaving you with a good foundation but very limited flexibility.

If the equivalent engine was written in blitz it would still be a lot easier to modify and a competent coder would have an easier time experimenting with new things and creating new technology. The most limiting feature of blitz3d is it's age, if it had been released in its current state when DX7 first came out, there would be a lot more potential for commercial quality games written in it.

It's a bit old in the tooth and thats why Bmax came into existence.

I'm really interested in seeing what becomes of realmcrafter as that strikes me as being the only real full blown attempt at a real engine written in blitz.

Look forward to seeing what the future holds if the 3d module does for current gen what Blitz3D did with DX7.

Blitz and C++ both compile to asm machine code.

C++ has the benefit of years and years of optimizations and a much larger development team.

The whole Deathstar/Force analogy is a little ridiculous. Given the same resources and time, there's no reason why a Basic compiler can't produce comparable end results, and comes pretty close even now.

This is echoed and proven in the .Net development world. You can write your code in any of the available languages, but performance is blurred when it comes time to execute it.

Speaking of .Net.. Funny thing is, I worked with Python quite a lot in the previous job I held, and when developed properly, Python code very closely resembles VB.Net code (although loosely typed) In fact, Python is much easier than Basic in many ways syntactically. Ironic how a Python programmer would have the audacity to put Basic down as "too easy and not hard core" enough.

Especially with BlitzMax, VB6, VB.Net/C#, "easier" programming languages have the same access to the same feature set of graphic APIs (DirectX or OpenGL) that C++ does. The performance of these libraries are really the important parts now. C++/Blitz/VB/Java/Python.. all act as "glue languages" for applications utilizing these libraries.

Certain Indie communities, are a bit short-sighted and full of industry-wannabe's trying their best to mimic the commercial counterparts they strive to be, but they lack an understanding of the decisions made when creating software from the project management and business side. They are under the impression that since the industry standard for development of games is C++, anything written in less than that isn't worth looking at... or that alternatives really "don't count" as real development tools.

What is not realized is that usually the sole reason C++ is used, is strictly for cross-platform capability. Or, in terms of consoles, this is usually the only way available for coding it. From the stand point of a large commercial game developer, if you're going to have a game with a budget of a million dollars or so, it makes sense to write it in a language that will reliably (or mostly reliably) port to the most platforms possible. C++ is really the only language out there that can boast this. If a development company could get away with hiring a programmer who's not pre-occupied with pointers, shorten development time, AND maintain cross platform capability, they would most assuredly do it.

Lots of game companies create specialized programming languages or libraries of their own, which run on a scripted back end. Granted these "engines" are written in C++, the scripts themselves are probably a lot closer to Basic than not. This is identical to the way Blitz projects are developed.

Take development a few years back as an example. LucasArts made SCUMM, which was a very simple basic-like programming language for developing their point-and-click adventure games.

Naughty Dog software utilized a home-grown Lisp compiler to write games such as Crash Bandicoot on the PS1.

Does that make their games any less noteworthy? No. Is the development path the same as Blitz? Pretty much. The only difference being that the tool is developed in-house.

From the PowerBASIC site -



What if I want to write for Mac, Xbox, PS2, PSP, or any other hardware? Do you get the C++ source to PowerBASIC?



That's funny considering BASIC such as Blitz is written itself in C++.

You can all try to compare and contrast BASIC to C++ ... but the truth of the matter is that with BASIC you are always at someone else's whim. If you learn C++ and use it properly then you can do whatever you want. Yes it's more work but the rewards are also greater.



No one would code a game of any complexity straight in C++. That's why the games themselves are actually created in a scripting language.



I think it's most limiting factor is that it doesn't come with the C++ source code. If it did imagine the possibilities!

I'm not yet at the point where I can will C++ to do whatever I want ... but I know it's still at this point in time the right direction to head in. Unless someone creates a unified architecture across all hardware that's more high level than C++ (perhaps like .Net and C#) there's really no reason to discuss this any further. BASIC is limited and C++ isn't. If C++ is limiting you then take more time and keep learning.

Think about it ... without C++ there'd be no Blitz which means there'd be no game. C++ programmers aren't impressed with your BASIC game because they know that the largest portion of the game is its C++ backbone and you had nothing to do with it. It's just a programmers perspective though ... gamers (you know the actual customers) won't give a rats behind ... but if you want to impress a C++ programmer you're not going to do it with BASIC.

Depends. I've worked with a fair amount of C++ programmers over the past few years, and most C++ programmers are fish out of water when they're expected to produce results in a rapid development environment. You can do whatever you want in just about any language now. It's a matter of calling the library that sits between the application and the driver where the real performance is leveraged. The playing field in terms of visuals is going to even out in the near future. Rapid development will be more important at that point. Successful utilizers of business software has already reached that point, and it's only a matter of time before the game industry adopts this same approach.

As you've mentioned above, the end result is what matters. Impressing a C++ programmer is a moot point. I'll probably get slammed for saying this, but in the companies I've worked for recently, they are a dying breed in the real world of development (Most crossing over to the .Net side). In these situations, you'll impress a C++ programmer far more if you have adopted proper software engineering skills and you can effectively apply them to whatever language you're using.

.Net is close to cross platform. Mono (http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page) is slowly working toward it.

In my opinion, time would be better spent honing skills on design and game play studies than the syntax the game is developed in. Language will always be a moving target.

Rocket dude brings up some good points and makes some really valid observations... ya gotta admit...

... regardless of which side of the c++ vs BASIC fence you reside.

right now i use both BlitzBasic and c++ with a 'Game Engine' (3Impact)... and to be honest, i find BASIC a lot like c... and if it had some pointers and class mechanism, there'd be very lil difference between the two...

i am at a loss to understand the reasoning behind some of the one sided opinions here from the different camps...


--Mike

Lack of real world experience most likely.

Mr.Alessi I think the language was made in assembly and the 3D commands were made in C++ - thats the impression I get

I think the language was written in C++ but its a null argument anyway - you could write a C++ compiler in Blitz.

When it comes down to the games you make, most people don't care what you use to write them unless it doesn't support the platforms you want. Otherwise you use whats easiest. You can create a scripting front end for blitz3d if you want and have your AI, cars and physics controlled that way. We kind of did that in the fun racer project. You can also implement a lot of C++ code via DLL's if you want to modify blitz that way.

Truth is, in the majority of games indies make gameplay relies more on the talent of the team than the language itself. With blitz your restricted considerably in the graphics department by a clunky surface count issue and lack of alpha sorting.

There isn't a way to do these things well, allthough Cygnus managed alpha sorting between cars the other day, which was very cool :)

And of course you lose cross platform with blitz3d too, which does close a lot of doors. Otherwise your mostly limited by skill and time since time costs money and most indies have neither in large supply many would benefit from a powerful easy to use and quick to prototype system like the blitz languages have.

You could write a C++ compiler but you you couldn't write C++ with Blitz! There's a big difference!

You folks are living in a dream world where C++ has gone by the wayside in favor of higher level languages everywhere. I thought the same thing about 4-5 years ago but guess what ... nothing's changed C/C++ is still the major high level go between all platforms. This might change with the likes of Java and .Net type platforms but still I saw some people complaining about Java up top ... Java is not that bad! Of course there's a lot of Blitz3D users who complained about BlitzMax being too hard so ... Anyway, even more important if you're using some high level language like Java or .Net you're still relying on Sun Microsystems or Microsoft a hell of a lot. With C++ you're relying mostly on yourself!

Basically, yeah in the future sometime I'm sure computer programming will be higher level and everyone will use it in a BASIC like manner to control all their surroundings in a custom fasion. However, at the root of all that will still be a C++ codebase. If it's not C++ it'll be something just like it. Something that's low level but also human readable.

Bottom line tools matter a lot more than you people are giving them credit for! Trust me on this!

ROFL - now you are trying to use my argument against me to prove your point. If you care to check my post I was referring to the tier of differently skilled *programmers* within each platform, not the pyramid of development languages.

Jeremy, you said there is no point discussing this further but I want you to listen to me when I say this next bit, as it is important.

Almost all commercial games are not developed in C++. They are written in BASIC.

Laughing yet? I expect you are, now here's the blunt truth of it.

Most games studios buy in their physics systems, their 3D engines, their multiplayer backbones, etc. Sure they get the C++ source and tweek things to their fancy but almost all commercial games are built out of cobbled together standard systems - the job of the games studio is to produce media and cobble these bits together. A few studios development some of their own modules, but aside from this the C++ part of the project is now over.

The rest is scripted. The scripting language for GTA San Andreas is even simpler and more primitive than Blitz. I meen, we're talking Spectrum level of complexity here. Where a Blitz command executes 5 or so C++ commands, San Andreas code executes dozens. GTA: San Andreas - like many other commercial games - was written in kiddy code.

Out of what, 20? (rough guess) coders they have only 3 (if I recall correctly) who worked on the C++ side of things, and mostly that was just linking together stuff that was already written.

So if I write a BASIC game using a lower level language than half the commercial titles out there and that game kicks ass, I think that C++ programmers should stand up and take notice.

I dont give my source code to programming boards (well I have posted code but you know what I meen!), I give my game. It is the game that is getting judged and being commented on.

60% of the game is design.
35% of it is the media.
5% of it is code.

Yet there is an attitude amongst many programmers that because I did 5% of it a harder way than most commercial games are written, but an easier method than those delluded fools are trying to do it that my game doesn't deserve even a mention, not even an "it was below average" or "I didnt enjoy it". In the particular case of gamedev I get zero feedback and always have had. The game gets downloaded though.

Downloading and playing an indie developers game and then not bothering to comment is down right rude. It's the least you can do in return for their effort in making it.



Wrong wrong wrong. Code is the smallest and least time consuming part of a game. If you are not spending at least half the time you are "programming" on design then every bit of code you type is making your coding experience take longer.

Only you can know for sure but that could explain why you also mentioned you havn't mastered C++ yet, it may also explain why you have the very prejudiced view of BASIC being moaned about in this very post.


You missed it happening then I pressume? The industry simplified games production a long long time ago...

The argument here is BASIC vs. C++ and the like. If you choose to make a game in Blitz you still have to make an engine for it to run if you're doing anything complex ... you should still have scripting etc... available. Why would you write an engine in BASIC if you have the option of using C++ and getting all the flexability that comes with it? Games are created with higher level language than C++ I agree ... however you should have the C++ backbone. When you use BASIC you don't get access to that backbone ... if someone released their BASIC programming language with the C++ source then I could see using it.

As it stands right now using Blitz for instance is restrictive because the only limit is not your imagination! The biggest limit is that you have to beg a plead with Mark to release something for Blitz! At least with C++ you only have yourself to blame!

I think Blitz is easy and quite simply the path of least resistance when making your first few games. One day you'll realize the restrictions and move on or maybe you'll just be content and make excuses for the restrictions forever. Personally, I'm not content with the restrictions anymore and I aim to keep on learning.

Pick up any game development story ... whether it be about Lord British and Ultima, John Romero and John Carmack for Doom, or that Keiichi Yano for Gitaroo Man. They all started with BASIC and then moved up to C/C++.

From the book Power-Up


This guy started with BASIC!

There are a gazillion examples of people who get it.



Yeah, exactly! Only if you're programming in BASIC (and if your code is the least time consuming part that's still really really sad) ... which means that whoever created the BASIC dialect made most of your game for you. Hence the reason C++ programmers aren't impressed with you.

You apparently don't take the code side of things very seriously. Truth is code still rules computers and games.

One thing I have to ask ... are you impressed by flash games? Seriously, if you're all about saving coding time and getting really high level there are a lot of solutions even more high level than BASIC you know. You should probably just go out and get one of those click & play solutions.

I think I need to clarify a bit. C++ is not going away. As I mentioned, it is the most reliable cross-platform language you will find.

However, fact of the matter is, this "dream world" happens to pay my bills on a bi-weekly basis. The "high-level go-between" doesn't matter much 99% of the time from the stand-point of developing software. As a game programmer, database programmer, or web programmer, you really do not need to know that your API call to the OpenGL library is moving bit X to stack Y... Yet, the call to that library is virtually identical (aside from the slight syntactical differences for API calls), regardless if you're using C++, Python, VB, BlitzMax, PureBasic, ... you get the idea. Simply put, you're likely not going to be responsible for the high level, difficult stuff if you're developing software bound for the end-user.

If your goal is to write graphics driver APIs, C++ knowledge is probably necessary. If you plan on writing games that utilize the APIs, you're probably not nearly as restricted. Your worry at that point would be how much work you want to put into porting your software to other platforms. Language choice will influence that.

If your goal is to program for the consoles in the near term, then C++ is your best chioce to get in the door. I imagine this requirement has less to do with the understanding of the syntax than with the understanding of it's application.

You'll probably find that once you get in the door, you'll be using whatever toolset they've created to make the games. You may be using C++ to interface to it, or it'll be some script language another developer higher on the food chain (like Mark or Simon) made for you.

It would be best for the industry if this wasn't the case forever, and console creators should provide or allow middleware RAD alternatives to C++ right out of the box. As budgets rise for software, it will be important for there to be a quicker return on the investment. That's really the funny thing about budgets and timelines in software development. As the budget grows, the timeline shortens. Or at least that's the way it works for any company that wants to stay in business.

There see? Higher on the food chain ...

At some point I want to be the one who decides what goes into my engine all the way. I don't want to have to rely on a Mark or Simon or anyone else to put feature X into my game or game making tool.

I'm not trying to knock BASIC ... it serves a great purpose but it doesn't leave you with full control. It's the equivalent to riding a bike with training wheels.

My point is Jeremy, that role isn't a game developer.

If you're in that position, you're a service provider to an internal consumer, and that consumer is likely the person doing the game development.

Games are about gameplay design and programming is about forethought. Therefore game design is the biggest single most important aspect of making games.

You can ask any of the programmers you have named if i'm talking sierra or not and you will almost certainly get the same reply.

If you did not design your game then you spend most of your actual time coding doing things that you would have done in the design stage an awful lot faster.


A few have been very enjoyable but most flash game authors tend to write very short and very simple affairs which are not impressive - but I have nothing against the platform.

Or you're like Gabe Newel. You wanted to make games so you start out using a few other tools to make your initial game(s). Then you go ahead and get down and dirty with your own game and game engine from scratch so that you can full realize your vision without compromise.

Anyway, there are a lot of game development houses that use custom engines. Eventually that's where I want to be ... should the tide change and everything just become unified into some BASIC high level heaven then so be it I'll be ready but if that never happens then I'll also be ready and willing to go where I want.

hmmm.. removed my post about torque, but I don't think that torque development can be considered comparable to writing a game in C++. For the most part the torque project we are working on is higher level than blitzbasic, with a couple of minor c++ engine tweaks off of the existing codebase.

you can script the existing engine in a scripting language similar in syntax to c... or you can mod the engine in c++...

Torque, that is...

what i'm finding out is that my plan to develop the sort of game id like to may very well require me to abandon the scripting only approach, and delve into the engine code...

... which is c++


--Mike

--Mike

Good maybe i'll see you there one day, but you'll need to loose the snobby look-down attitude if we ever end up working together because I wont stand for it ! lol.

I'll be brushing up on my C++ before long for much the same reason you are Jeremy, but my main focus will be to produce a showcase game in BASIC to demonstrate to prospective software houses, and I doubt very much they're going to look down upon my creation purely because of the tool it's written in.

The last contact of mine to get a job working for one of the big houses has never even looked at a C++ IDE, and still hasn't a year on.

And I bet 2 years from now I still wont have a comment on gamedev.

Edit: Adrian removed his post! Hmmm to keep or not to keep!

I'm just stating facts. C++ is the real deal. My experience is somewhat irrelevant in that matter.

I'm also not the one who is trying to impress C++ programmers with my amazing BASIC code. Give me a few more years though and I will be impressing people with my C++ code. At least I've got the appropriate attitude for success and I'm not content to sit back and wait for someone to add feature X,Y,Z to some closed access BASIC language.

The argument here is why are people "prejudiced" agaisnt BASIC. Well, I think I stated a lot of good reasons above. I'm "prejudiced" against it because it is restricting. Yes, C++ is also restricting to me at the moment but not because of someone else ... only because of me. BASIC and game programming in general was restricting in a similar fasion a few years ago. Got to keep moving forward though.

And Adrian you really shouldn't come at me like that. Perhaps you should consider the fact that I'm on the real path to success through learning and hardwork.

My initial experience programming computers is all based in C++. Why didn't I create games with it before? Because I didn't like the fact that I had to create every function just to get some graphics on screen etc... BASIC was a lot easier for me to use to make a game so I did that. Now I'm seeing how C++ is used to create a whole game and I'm also seeing the restrictions that are lifted from your program when you've got access to the C++ source.

I'm not arguing against BASIC and I'm not arguing that games shouldn't be created with high level language. I said all of that above. All I did was give a reason why no C++ programmer is really going to be impressed with some BASIC code. To top that off I'd be fine using BASIC if I also had access to the C++ behind it so that I could add feature X,Y,Z to a pre-existing codebase.

Of course I don't think I'd be happy with that forever ... but at the moment that's where I'm at pretty much. Using Torque is great because you have the low level and the high level. Of course the high level in Torque is just like C and not like BASIC. But that only helps you gain a better understanding of typcal C syntax. Still you're using what is essentailly C to code the game logic but it's not all that different from Blitz which is quite C like itself.

I don't see why it's such a big deal to realize that BASIC is pretty that ... basic and that other languages like C++ are above it in the hierarchy of skill.

It's all equivalent exchange. C++ takes more time to master but the rewards are equally as great. If you're afraid of C++ I'd recommend learning Torque or someother similar tool because it'll get you up to speed nicely.

I'm saying this as someone who has gone through all forms of BASIC and has created many many many games. More than any of you know about but surely the public ones are enough to validate my opinion on making games.

I'll have to also quote the main man Mark Sibly himself from his worklog:


So there's Mark himself asking why are people using BASIC. And, as he says it is because you really have to know what you're doing to use C/C++. Basically, that's the type of backlash you're getting from other people who aren't impressed with BASIC ... they know that you don't know a lot ... but you think you know a lot.

It's a bit like that game people ragged on last week.

http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=50847

The guy put all that effort into it and it was cool for a beginner project. Of course many people around here had already grown beyond that level of skill so they weren't impressed. They were even less impressed that the guy thought he had done something really great.

I think C++ programmers feel very similar about BASIC programmers ... to them that's the level they were at when they were kids or at least early on in their programming careers like myself. I didn't learn to program until I was 18 and that was only on a calcualtor ... I was 21 before I was actually doing any programming on a computer. Not saying I'm never impressed with BASIC anymore but let's just say that most of the time it doesn't really blow me away like it did in the beginning.

Hey now! I never meant to come off like that ;) I was just trying to state that there is a bit of a reason why some other programmers act like that. I don't look down on a game because it was written in BASIC ... I just play the game and have fun.

However, I can see their perspective as well. It might be good to consider also that they act like that because lots of BASIC games get props and many C++ programmers don't get props because they never finish a game because C++ takes so much more work. They are resentful that you've gone and got a game under your belt while they're sitll griding away on code.

In all fairness ... someone had to play the devil's advocate!

Presonaly speaking, I think there is a potentaily huge use, and largely unknowing, demand for BASIC's or basic style languages.

The problem at the momment with BASIC's image is due to the fact that most coders at the momment are exactly that. Coders. Programers. "We do this of a living.". If you are a programer, then yes, basic and blitzmax isn't going to be your number one choice for many projects...

But I think this is missing the point.

Not everybody out there is, or wants to be an out and out programer. Not everyone has the time to be a out and out programer. Programing is not the object in the users life, but the end result of that program.

I am 4th year a chemistry student, not a programer. I view programing as a hobby, a source of a bit of beer money and, more importantly, a tool which can be very useful in chemistry. I do not want to learn yet another programing language, I neather have the time, money nor the will to do so. I realy don't give a rats backside how fast X is over Y, how x has z small problem Y has m small advantage. I was taught basic in high school, its the language I'm most at home in, I'm not relearning everything because I have other problems now, such as themodynamics and kinetics, mass spectra, H1 and C13 NMR's and the fact that every chemical structure drawing program on the market is a) completely crap or b) costs an insane amount of money.

It boils down to this. Other- non programer- people need a simple "Just work damnit!" method to implement complex ideas that have taken them years to learn on computers.

And this is where basic exels. Giving non-programers the ability to acess the huge power computers have for use in there own fields of work.

Case and point being, as I have been told a few times, some of the best scientific programs ever made, were (and still are) in BBC Basic.

Yeah, BASIC was made for such applications. BASIC is extremely useful and I don't think anyone denies that. Hardcore C++ programmer or not.

No they aren't. Well, sort of.

There is a place for C++, indie games development has very little room for it.

I am a long way from the best programmer around, i'm not even the best BASIC or BlitzBASIC programmer, but even I can run circles around most of the indie scene C++ coders i've seen. Not all I grant you, but the vast bulk of them.

There's a reason for that.

I am more skilled at programming than them. C++ is not above me in skill, I look *across* to it not up or down. If I had a need for it I would brush up on it and use that.

Whilst C++ programming will always have it's place the bulk of commercial programming is written using tools developed in C++ - not in C++ itself. Like GTA and their script language, and the in house tools discussed earlier.

I gave some numbers earlier for programmers at Rockstar North which I understand to be a more or less correct. Those figures where for C++ programmers v's 3GL programmers. 3 C++ to 20 scripters. What does that tell us?

It tells us that anybody trying to create their own game entirely in C++ in order to work in the industry isn't clever or more deserving of respect on an open programming forum. They aren't higher up the skill tree because they're using C++. What they are is a bl**dy idiot for making life hard on themselves.

I say sure learn C++, it's a good tool and will probably be used in the industry for some stuff for years to come, understand it as much as possible and knock up little utilities in it so that you get a grasp and appreciation of the language - but making a whole game in it, for the indie scene or as a showcase for getting a job? That's nuts, and totally stupid.

My opinion: Learn C++, but do your showcase games in something more appropriate for small team/solo development. At the end of the day a full game is way more impressive to an interviewer than some heavily bugged (talking gamedev here) cobbled together C++ fan-rubbish that I could do in 30 minutes in Blitz.

Maybe I should stop commenting on the work of C++ coders who try to write full games. They are clearly always going to stay leagues below me until they use the right tool for the job... *blink*

This thread has tapped a nerve that hadn't really been exposed before, and probably wouldn't have been otherwise, so i'm sorry your in the way of the back lash ;).

It's not like I even post at gamedev anymore, I gave up on them over a year ago and had to make a new login to let them know about my waterworld project. Which didn't get a reply btw.

Well, I don't desire a job with any other company other than my own. I just don't see how ... using BASIC I can ever reach the pinnacle of game development.

Best Amazing Single Indie Compiler

I can virtually guarantee you that Gabe has not written a single line of code in a long long time, and his involvement in Half Life 2 was probably not much more than "get this done, get that done, and make sure nobody steals the source code this time".

Valve likely has a team devoted to Steam, a team devoted to "Source" development, and a team that glues the engine together into a cohesive game.

And if they don't, it goes a long way to explain why you see a title from them... *maybe* once every 5 years. With that schedule, the first "crap" game they produce will pretty much be the end of them, provided the engine licensing isn't enough to keep them alive.

If you really think of it, they (and ID) are more of a middleware developer than a game developer. The Source engine is licensable, Doom3 engine is licensable. Half Life 2/Doom3 are merely demos to market them. (that happens to be a title with quality enough to sell) It's an ingenious (and confusing) approach if you think about it. You sell your advertising. But then again, you have to buy advertisement to sell your advertisement. Strange :)




I disagree with that. This may be true of certain incarnations of BASIC, but not all of them.

When it comes down to it, and what I've been saying all along is, the calls you make to OpenGL, or DirectX, are going to be virtaully identical across all syntaxes, and call the same routines.

If the version of Basic you're using limits your exposure to those calls, then yes, it's restricting.

If you're using Max, PureBasic or VB.Net (or even VB6), you have as much exposure (or as much as you need) to these libraries as C++.



Absolutely right. C++ developers who are prejudiced against Basic are usually that way because they take it so personally that they've spent so much time learning something that can be accomplished a simpler way. Whatever that reason is.. fear of job security, inability to recognize solutions at an abstract level.. it's all really silly, and really just a personal issue of their own.

As someone mentioned above, many Basic compilers are the work of C++ programmers. These programmers are the one's that "get it", and understand the direction software development needs to go to co-exist with the constant demand of time lines and budgets.

Personal satisfaction aside, if you want to do any sort of software development for a living, you need to concede that the best approach is not always the most complex, and you do what you need to do to get it done on time, with the amount of money allotted.



You're absolutely right, GA. Even with the simplicity of Basic, compared to the general population, not many people have the ability to sit down and hammer out a game in even the simplest of languages.

Do what you need to do to get the job done. If you can get the game you want to get done in Blitz or Dark Basic, or whatever, it's silly to kill yourself with C++. I personally have yet to see anything on the indie scene, programmed in C++ or not, that couldn't be done with some of the "simpler" languages available.

It'll have little to do with syntax. Odds are, when you reach the pinnacle, you won't be doing the coding yourself, but telling your team what you want it to do.

I think what Becky (and others) has tried to get across is, you only have so much energy to devote to creativity vs. coding. If you do it all, and want to produce something as recognizable as Doom 3, you're always going to be playing catch-up.

Besides... I saw your game on G4, man! Not many even reach that pinaccle.

Yeah ... except port it!

Port to what?
PS2.. yeah.. probably be difficult to do.

Mac? Linux? Blitz Max will allow you to do it. Python will allow you to do it. (Obviously you'd need to re-write it)

For the tools available at the time, you did well.

I think a good example here is Worms. That game was originally a BlitzBasic Amiga game if I remember correctly. The game caught on ... and they moved to C/C++ so that they could control the game more. Not the gameplay but the whole course of the game. Now that I know how to make games I'm looking down the road a bit and if something takes off like Worms ... the path of least resistance is to already be prepared to port it etc...

Some truth in that, but not if it means you can't finish the game in the first place, or you have to skirt around the design through lack of skill.

Truth is that the vast majority of people developing indie games have little chance of success no matter what they use. Finishing and shipping a product is not something that can easily be done without a lot of dedication and a supreme effort. Thats why wherever you look, you don't see many games being finished. Blitz actually does better than most but developers don't have much support on the marketing front. And Marketing is what essentialy gets your game out there, on peoples computers and sold. Marketing is probably the second most important thing to success after having an actual product.

Notice how most successful indie games tend to be developed and finished by industry veterans? Most success comes through hard work, practice and experience and accumulated knowledge of how things work. It's as simple as that.

Not really. The real deal is getting a project completed and fully functional... which is something impressive in any language.

Yeah and most of them don't use BASIC for their games. I agree success comes from hard work, practice, and experience though.

I went through a period of c language snobbery but soon found I could achieve more with Blitz. Basic has been moving forward for years now and is at least as good as Pascal ,if not better.

Heck, I can achieve more in most respects with Blitz at the moment as well. Down the road though ... C++ will yield more rewards.




Well Amen to that!

Didnt read the last few posts but Jeremy seems to be talking about the 'effort' while me, Becky and some others are talking about 'results'. Two different discussions, using same metaphors = extremely incompetent debating! :D hahaha

Anyway. I have a question. If a fairly rich enterpreneur wanted to start up a semi-indie game development company which aims to sell about 500000 copies of a game would he be better off hiring C++ programmers or BlitzMax programmers? Well the answer is obvious under a few conditions which are easily realised; that blitzmax and max3d modules do not have major slowdowns in key areas which are important for game design incuding graphics and physics calculations, that existing libraries that need to be used can be interfaced with max and needed components. If the developer designs the game properly to suit max3d module, he could code a Doom3 expansion (even tho its an ugly stupid game, i mention it because of OpenGL). And a BlitzMax programmer would probably charge less for the entire project and take less time.

Art costs the same wether you make a game in blitzmax or c++. This is the snag. Now, whichever project's costs are estimated for nowdays about 70% at least will go into art for a visually appealing title.

I just like talking about "big projects", nothing too serious, but if you look at it this way a project could cost about 20% less if made in blitzmax, this reduction in costs includes the reduced time it takes not just hard cash. This isn't much? Guess not. But it can be.

My point is only that a clever developer can save some money using higher level languages if the language is suited well enough for the design of the game so that not many corners have to be cut. The fact that bigger developers dont use this is because of the prejudice discussed here, and because the "expensive professional programmers" work hard at keeping everyone convinced they are really needed.

I mean don't tell me WoW couldnt have been made in BlitzMax with the Max3d module. What about EVE online? It's just good art and sounds. Coders try to ignore the fact that code is a small part of the game.

Oh another thing. The reasons why most accomplished and popular indie games come from harder languages are because easier languages arent that popular and more importantly the coders that code the hard way learn hard work just to make something basic and then its easy psychologically to sustain hard work for longer times and take things more seriously.

Kind of like the painters trade union that at least used to prevent certain types of paint brushes for home decoration being sold in the UK. Mainly because it made it too easy for DIY people to do their job for them.

Found out about this in the mid 90's whilst working the summer as a handyman for some rich americans, and being amazed at the great paint brushes they brought with them to make edging on multipane windows much easier :)

With all the time Jeremy spent hyping C++ in this thread, he could have turned out a really nice game in BASIC.

I love C++ myself, and prefer the syntax over BASIC, however, one should always use the right tool for the job. What tool may be right for one person, may not be right for another person.

Porting? *Chuckles* Trust me, its very easy to port a PB game or app to OSX or NIX. Same with RealBASIC, BMax, etc. Try porting a game or app with VC++ (VC++ is still the industry standard for C++). Its not as easy.

Professionals only use C++? *Chuckles again* I literally retired off a VB program in the early-mid 90s and I hate VB. I did a bunch of contract work after that, but did it for fun and to have something to do, as I didn't really need the $$ at that point.

A professional will always use the right tool for the right job.

I disagree on this one point, I dont think the industry is prejudiced at all. I think the only real snobbyness exists amongst indies.

As mentioned previously bigger developers are using even cruder languages than BASIC - it's just that the scripting languages are so simplified it's not thought of as programming - yet that's what most of commercial game development is now.

There are not many C++ programmers, or rather "engine people" involved in the development of individual games. Think about it, Medal of Honour was written in QuakeBASIC... and in turn Quake used libraried code and modules.

C++ isn't a dying bread. Somebody who understands the bottom layer will need to be there for every commercial games project to keep things running smoothly under the hood - but most of the C++ 'games industry' programmers working today just have the unenviable task of linking together libraries and modules and trying to make it all compatable with each other - there number of engine developers is actually quite limited especially now that a lot of games are sharing engines.

What us indies, particularly the BASIC programmers here, think of as commercial game programming would more likely be thought of as "level design" in the industry. That's no necessarily making a 3D maze mesh, but using CallOfDutyBASIC or whatever - which in most cases is a greatly simplified form of BASIC for idiots that is much higher level. Like Red Octobers code example above.

The corporate side of the industry isn't actually prejudiced, the bad attitude comes from indie C++ programmers, and that's probably why they are indies and not actually working in the job that most of them are seeking.

It's a lot easier to make really bad basic code that works, than it is to make really bad C++ code that works. If you took a good C++ programmer and a good Blitz programmer who'd never written in the other language you'd be much more apt to find that the C++ programmer writes tighter, more well structured code. It takes more attention to detail, more diligence to write good C++ code than it does to write good basic code.

Likewise the basic programmers moving to C++ tend to have a much more difficult time with the step than a C++ programmer that decides they want to take up a basic derivative.

It still doesn't make one BETTER than the other... C++ is more flexible, but apples and oranges can't be compared as to which is BETTER. You can only compare relative differences, benefits and deteriments.

the last commercial developer I worked for was a lot smaller than rockstar. But the set up there wasn't disimilar to what Becky mentions.

2 core engine programmers.

Basicly working on the core engine with one specializing on Xbox and PS2.

2 support programmers.

Who made a lot of the tools and libraries, GUI, particle systems, menus, video codecs and compression etc. (funnily enough PS2 SDK had no working video codec that was able to synch audio correctly at the time!!!!)

1 Game designer

who also created and tested art path tools and the scripting language as well as defining the gameplan, and playtested the entire game throughout production.

1 Animator/Programmer

fairly unusual I think, but he was responsible for coding all the bones and other character related stuff, including some physics.

8 Artists including myself who created all the vehicles, environments and other static and animated objects as wells as being responsible for a large portion of the level design and high level gameplay scripting, particles etc.

Maybe, but that's a bad thing, as far as I can see.

I don't know if it's a bad thing... In fact I'd have to say it's a very very good thing. Because that diligence and attention to detail will carry over into other languages you decide to learn.

So, while it might be bad in terms of productivity, I believe that it pays off in good programming habits.

You missed my point, I think. I was saying that in BASIC you don't need the same diligence and attentioon to detail as you do coding in C++ when writting good code in either language.

I think basic is cool as it allows creative people realize innovative gaming ideas without being inhibited by a horrendously complex language like C++.

Many creative people are not good language and math people and use the exact opposite hemisphere of the brain but do have a good understanding of how things work, and can conceptualize new ways of doing things. Having a high level language to work with does give them the opportunity to create something without the unnecessary kludge of a complex language like C++.

Game development to me is a kind of like art, and being someone with a traditional painting and illustration background, one thing I notice in both mediums is that good art and good games are often about simplicity and knowing how to create an impression/suggestion of something without getting swamped in the details.

I think in many cases it’s the same thing with languages, a basic language can be simple and elegant if it’s written with your medium in mind. Not everyone needs to be able to dig in the heart of the engine to create a fantastic game. I do think that Blitz3D has been let down somewhat through a lack of some basic features that DX7 does support (compressed textures, some kind of alpha sorting, more UV channels if required with some basic control of multipass rendering within the b3d format would be fantastic.

But even so, there isn’t really much that can touch it in the flexibility and ease of use when it comes to roughing out a game design.

I dont know what you lot are talking about, and I sure aint reading all of that stuff - but I currently use a python based language, and I wouldn't go back to a basic language.

Basic is, imo - a dated language. There is an excessive amount of typing and when you use the language I do (boo) - you get to spend more time programming and getting the results, rather than getting the compiler just to accept your code. We're long past the days of needing an if, endif and so on - why do that when laying our code out in a readable manor will achieve the same thing?

I have to admit, my coding views are notably different since I picked up Blitz - so my views may well have changed (I like to think matured, but im sure some will differ ;) ). But since then, I've started following design patterns, coding standards, readable code, etc - and with a BASIC language achieving this things accuratly and quickly cannot be done (unless your using vb.net - then it compiles down to IL anyway.. so writing the language was more of a wrap than a task)

Just my views, no need to accept them ;)

> We're long past the days of needing an if, endif and so on - why do that when laying our code out in a readable manor will achieve the same thing?

I like to know what each endif is for rather then just a curly brace, especially when needing to add or subtract a layer from a whole bunch of ifs and loops. Nothing worse then having 10 or so ending curly braces to try and figure out where some more code actually needs to go. (this is java and C#).

Some editors have a nice little auto-highlighting feature, put the cursor on an ending bracket and it highlights the starting point, with that little inclusion then I don't care if is and endif, next, or } closing a block of code.

Really? I must have missed that memo. :P

I spend my time 99% thinking, 1% typing .. can't be bothered by the word endif which I type in a splitsecond.. "short words/symbols to save typing-time" is overrated imho..

(2ct)

I believe protean does most of that stuff for you anyway.

lol. so does Blide.

This thread has gone on and on (Ariston), anyone remember that advert, it had C64, music on it, I couldn't believe it!

Yeah Protean does show the start and end of Ifs and stuff which is really ahndle plus it auto types stuff like End Function which saves some time.

I disagree that C++ enforces good code - I've seen some utter incomprehensible rubbish written in C++ (or was it C, I forget), and it wasn't because the programmer was 'clever', it was because the programmer was trying to be clever. I've also seen plenty of code where people comment their braces with stuff like 'end while loop' which defeats the keypress saving of }. Certainly C++ is just about the most versatile language out there - you're unlikely to think "I wish I had so and so feature in C++" and I'm sure some of the best compilers out there are C++ ones - but for me it's not worth the extra effort.

Assembly is the force. C++ is the dark side.

Whaaaaa ... you've got to be eff'ing kidding me! Now you've gone too far!

Coding in C++ isn't that different from coding in Blitz ... save for the fact that you've got total control on basically every computer that exists. Sure ... there aren't commands for every single thing out there ... well actually that's not even true. If you wanted to you could easily scrap together a library of free resources that probably does everything in C++ that Blitz does and then the two really wouldn't be all that different.

If your aim is only to make home computer based games ... then I say fine BASIC rocks especially Blitz. However, if you want to step up and control your game's destiny you've got to use C++ as the backbone.



Hmmm... you know most script languages are similar to BASIC in their power ... however they have often times greater functionality and are more like C than BASIC. To top it off you can totally add whatever you want to the scripting language because you've got the C++ source to it. Also you don't need to compile it in the same manner as BASIC ... anyone can just open up a script file and change it.

Sorry man ... I like ... no I love BASIC but I crave more. C++ is more!

BTW I'm going to kill this thread eventually!

ROTFLMAO...

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAA!!!!!

no... don't kill it J... this is good stuff...


ya know... for all the people who think that c and c++ are so bad... as compared to BASIC... please, consider this...

3Impact is a game library (engine, whatever) that you code in c just like you would code the same 3D in BASIC... as a matter of fact, 3Impact is available for c, delphi, and powerBASIC...

if you are like me... you complicate things a lil by creating classes for stuff, and adding in the ++ to the c, but there's no need to...

it's one of the best ways to get your feet wet, so to say, in c and c++... the code looks so similar in c when compared to it's BAISC counterpart...

nothing could be simpler...

actually, in a few days, a dll version will be debuting, so someone might wanna interface it to BlitzMAX... it's a fully functional game lib/engine... with built in physics... worth taking a look at...

now you can have the best of your worlds... BASIC, BLITZMAX BASIC, C, C++... hey, can't we all just get along...

... programattically speaking that is :)

--Mike

Oh yeaahhh.....



No!!! We shall continue it...in the Octagon....

chuck norris!

I got a *Whaaaa* out of Jeremy, my work here is done ; )

So we've established that these things are basically (excuse the pun) a language that has 1 command for 20 odd C++ commands, as opposed 1 to 5 for BASIC, but of course we forgot to mention previously, it's only interpreted.

Yes C++ is necessary, but no, it is not the beating heart of the industry.

This just goes to reinforce my point that those wonna-be's who code in C++ and look down on BASIC because they want a job in the industry are without question the most delluded idiots anywhere in the world outside of politics.

Now do you see my point Jeremy? If I code and release a game in BASIC and publish it on an open programming board such as gamedev - those guys should be paying attention, giving their thoughts on the product, and possibly even learning something from the humble BASIC coder who just showed them how to do what they're failing at...

Try writing Blitzmax with Blitz3D.. :)

Ok, I'll shut up now.;)

Nothing is impossible.

But highly improbable.

@John: Yeah. But tell me, who around here other than Mr Sibly, could do it in C++? Lol. Someone with enough knowledge to do it in C++, could do it in Blitz3D too. With enough knowledge on CPU Infrastructure, its even possible to make the created language create multi-platform code, just like Max.

@All:
oh, and The fact most games written in C++ can be multi platform is because there are so many C++ compilers. C++ became the standard, that doesnt make it above (or below) basic. What would happen if Mark made a b3d compiler for MacOS and Linux? ;)

Cyg: Yeah the objects can be reused on the playstation and xbox versions.

maybe you could write BlitzMax in Blitz3D IF you just wrote all the code in C++ .dlls and used them in Blitz3D ;-)

LOL. see? I told you it was possible?

yeah... and pigs CAN in fact fly...

anything IS possible... like you said :)

--Mike

Never underestimate the power of WriteByte.

:P

hahahaahahahaaaaa... never underestimate the ability of a true believer to bend over backwards and touch his ankles... :)

--Mike

*Cygnus bends over backwards*

*SNAP*


Owiiiee!

:)

--Mike

...Sorry... I was bored. ¬.¬

Its true though. Its not impossible, however, the chances of someone using knowledge and writebyte? Lmao.... almost like building a house using grains of sand etc.

Actually, should we have a "create an EXE using blitzbasic" competition? :P

Didn't someone write a compiler with Blitz3d once??? Or was that script parser.....


So anyways...back to the real issue here. Who's gonna join me in....the bloody Octagon fight......?

Nero; Theres been several script>blitz "compilers" that compile script to blitz3d code or even some form of Opcode. you may be right- check out the BlitzScript3D thread over in b3d programming :)

Or more likely, odds are when you reach the pinnacle, it will have moved just a little bit further.

Most people wouldn't consider a ulcur a "reward". What kind of rewards are you looking for?

Except it is dying. C++ is not evolving fast enough to keep up with newer languages. Eventually the huge investments in exsisting technology will start to lag behind, as maintenance costs soar to rediculous levels, and the whole thing will implode. Afterwards, only those languages agile enough to keep up with an ever changing market will be used. People who think C++ is the dogs bollocks remind me of Amiga users and/or PL/1 programers. Effectively dead - just don't know it yet.

No it doesn't. Because C++ allows more absolutely horrible awful mistakes that the compiler will happily ignore, doesn't mean the programmer is nessecarilly better, just that he's wasted more time debugging. Performance is not an issue. In general, 20% of an applications cost in it's lifetime will be production costs. The last 80% maintenance and support costs. So which would you rather have? A language that allows potentially dangerous, and nearly impossible to track down bugs, or one that doesn't.

No it won't. Like being able to do 2's complement math and knowing opcodes for assembly language, it's the kind of thing you can do at a party if you want to look particularly geeky. At least 80% of all that extra "attention to detail" is something specific to C++, which better structured languages, and a better multi-pass compilers will do for you automatically. All those "good habits" you picked up as a C++ programmer (cleaning up resources after use - for example) is now handled automagically for you, in much the same way oldskool assembly programmers had to shift, rather than multiply when possible, or use LUT's. It just doesn't apply anymore.

I wish C++ had automatic garbage collection and considered everything to be an object (like Python)!

True. However since you don't own every computer that exsists, what's the point?

"Control your games destiny"? Are you for real?!? Your games "destiny" as it where, has nothing at all to do with which language it was written in. All that matters is how many friends you have in the right places.

Actually, C++ is less. Far, far less. In fact C++ on it's own only allows you to do algorythms. Try writting even a simple program without a compiler directive. Whoops.

Actually the real reason is because there's some pale skined ninjas out there with enough balls to write the same code, more than once. Maintaining cross-platform C++ code is a bit more tricky than taking the source and makefile to a different computer and running make. I promise.

stay tuned folks... if you weren't misinformed by the last couple of assertions... there's lots more misrepresentation of misinformation to come!!!!


but now, a brief, non commercial reality break...

please be advised, that the opinions expressed in the following noncommercial minute, do not reflect the policies of this station...

cue noncommercial break.... 3...2...1...


the bottom line is... that there is no real difference between BASIC, c, and c++... at least not for most of us... right now i'm coding a game in a hacked OOP Blitz3D BASIC and in c++ using the 3Impact engine...

i see none of the revalations or doom and gloom that anyone of the campers on either side of the fence have pointed out... they're both more similar than dissimilar to me...



now... back to our regularly scheduled presentation of mass misinformation and baseless viewpoints :)

--Mike

Ah huh... just keep telling yourself that.



Yes, that's true and it's why you create a separate platform layer for you project so that all your code runs through the platform layer which can be written for anything.

I can't believe no one on here realizes how important C++ is.



And what? BASIC is ... hahahaha!



First of all I like politics so maybe that explains a few things. Second ... I don't think anyone looks down on BASIC ... they just have a notion of reality. You're not going to make anything spectacular way above and beyond anything else with BASIC. You can make something quality sure ... but you'll never be the best there is even for a moment as it were in this industry using BASIC. Even when you do make something great using BASIC you'll end up porting it to C/C++ like Worms.

It's just the nature of the beast. BASIC is an easier route to a game. However, video games are at least 50% based on technology if not more. C++ allows you to tap into the newest technology instantly. If you wait for BASIC to tap into it you're already 2 years behind the curve minimum. Look at BlitzMax ... by the time it has a fully featured 3D module capable of Doom 3 quality graphics ... Doom 3 will be 2 years old at least. This means any BASIC clinger will never be among the leaders ... because the leaders are tapping right into the newest technology to either make games or make tools for less experienced developers who can't tap right into the power of the newest technology because they don't use C++.

Also, don't give me some argument about games not being so much based on technology. If this were true then people would simply search out older titles for cheap that they never played. Most of the time when you play an older title that was supposed to be amazing ... you realize why it was when it was ... but you honestly won't enjoy it like you would the latest and greatest. Technology makes the games better ... otherwise we'd just all play Chess or something like it.

finish that damn sub game already!!!

Are you saying that the guys over at GameDev.net make spectacular things way above and beyond everything else, using c++? Regardless of language, you will probably need millions of dollars to make something beyond the visual quality of various AAA games. At least... visual quality to appeal to peoples' warped minds that are obsessed with flat attempts at realism.


I do play Chess. It's a very interesting game of wits.
I also play Go, which is an even less visual game, and it is incredibly strategic.



Techonology certainly does make games better, but it's not just visually better!
We have more RAM, more HD space, and far more processing speed to throw around. Thanks to this, games like SimCity 4 are now possible, which clearly utilize massive amounts of RAM in contrast to the original SimCity. Need I remind that BASIC allows full undenied access to the power to create millions of variables, perform thousands of math operations in seconds, and store a game across huge amounts of disk space.
Another reason for how not having state of the art visual technology is not as huge a problem as some may think is that games will look goood for much longer if they are made by sensible people who follow the following bits of common sense:
--A game with today's technology that tries to look "more realistic than ever before" will only be beaten minutes later by another game made with tommorow's technology which also looks "more realistic than ever before." Both games will fail miserably in their claims.
--A game that simply looks nice in its own way will continute to look good for a while longer, because there will be far less clones of the exact same art style that do an infinietly better job of it.
--Building on the previous points, the developer must realize the following: This Hardware Has Limitations. I will not try to push those limitations in a failed attempt to make it somehow look better. Instead, I will accept what I have, and build the game around those limitations rather than through them. To explain the 'Around rather than through' idea, I will use this analogy. And who would argue with an analogy?: There is a big muddy field full of massively tall grass. I can walk around it, only getting a bit dirty; or I could walk straight through it, getting caked in mud, grass, and all that other horrible stuff.



Also, visual technology aside, BASIC is not just for games. With the appropriate knowledge, BASIC can be used effectively for a good variety of computer programs.




As well, BASIC may not be SUPERB at making games, but that does not rule out the fact that it is an amusing passtime that can produce good and amusing results. (Platypus and Wonderland spring to mind)

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that all the people that I identify as making the best games use C++ as a basis for those games. In my eyes C++ is more dynamic than BASIC and can put you above and beyond BASIC if you can utilize it correctly. The gamedev.net people probably just haven't mastered it yet.

I personally, was more interested in making games than programming just a few years ago (ok still am). However, I've realized after making a few fairly successful games that I'll never achieve my desired effect on the industry or players without better programming skills. I can do just about anything I want with Blitz but because I think Blitz is limiting in other areas of the whole game vehicle I have no motivation to use it.

Torque is making a better programmer out of me because I have to learn new stuff (like way more C++ than I ever used before). Also, Torque goes places ... anywhere you want if you've got the skills. So overall I'm just tired of what BASIC offers me. I've got a bazillion little games I've made with Blitz but none of them is worth finishing in Blitz because the overall game would suffer by restricting it to BASIC where I have absolutely no control over the internals of the platform.

Mr. Pickle, you are right..and I cant see anything bad in chess Jeremy (since you use it as a bad game example, whats very interesting to hear from someone who making games)...and second, here within Sony we intensively using PowerBasic for our MCU, industrial and robotics programming..reason is simple..this thing is faster and creating smaller EXE than any C or C++ compiler exist...and I'm pretty sure there is or it will be some game support for this small beast since its incredibly fast and stable..right now you can count on your multiplatform advantage, but according to Bob Zale's plan, it will not take so long for PB to get multiplatform nature...I'll ask you then for rest of questions..right now, PB will kick ass of any C or C++ compiler on windows..enjoy..

Hanging out in the C++ forums.

All I can say is that I havent seen a single successful indie game that couldn't be done in blitz, and more likey easier and quicker.

Success has little to do with what language you use, its to do with how good your marketing is, how fun the game is, and who you know to help you along your way.

In commercial games especialy it's all down to who you know and what record of reliability and success your team has had in the past.

BRL does no marketing and has no close industry contacts that I'm aware of, which basivly leaves a bunch of unknown developers develop games that no one really gets to hear about, usualy due to a lack of marketing and bargening power when negotiatomg deals with publishers.

I don't think it matters what language you use so long as the game is good, all the rest depends on you getting through to the right people.

I didn't say it was a bad game. It's a great game! I was saying that we'd be content merely with 'game' in our video games instead of technology. I was just making the point that video games are at least 50% technology ... without the increase in technology ... video games wouldn't be what they are. As this applies to what programming language you use ... well if you're using BASIC you're not at the head of the technology pack.



Well ... that's nice if he has the ability to create a compiler that's faster than Microsoft's optimized compiler or any other. If you're content to use that closed code base because it's simply faster than so be it. What if you want to port it to Sony PSP? What if you want to add a platform layer for some other device? Is the language oject oriented?

Actually I do...but...I think BlitzMax is pretty badass...although I dont consider BlitzMax an actual BASIC language...it reminds me way too much of Pascal...



There is a badass game called Juno Nemisis that was written in 3DRAD....but then it got ported to Blitz3d and became even more badass and...uhh...nevermind...

This is true partially. I mean if BR did have contacts then maybe they'd have an Xbox license for Blitz. Problem is ... that a skilled C++ programmer wouldn't need say Garage Games to get Torque running on Xbox ... they could do it themselves. Sure most people do need the help and that's part of the draw. However, Mutant Storm being powered by a custom setup is ported to Xbox under their own power. I don't think they are a large team and I don't think they have a huge number of contacts ... but because they use C++ ... they've got the power to go where they want.

If BASIC was so great then it would be the industry standard not the point of entry.

I got Mutant storm as a present from the developers one christmas it's a game that doesn't require a lot of hardware muscle behind it and probably wouldn't be too hard to create in another language.

I think people need to worry about building a success before worrying about portability. Better to get a good game out and have it prove itself than worry about the possibility of other platforms you may never be invited to develop for.

They were industry veterans when they quit and started pompom. Funnily enough Mutant Storm sold very poorly despite getting rave reviews. At the time they sent me the copy things weren't looking good and their first game Space Tripper was selling better than ever. People played mutant storm but didn't buy it. Sounds kind of familiar ;)

Anyway, they did get a lot of positive media coverage, got published by GG, didn't sell that well their either, but they obviously caught someone at MS attention somehow, as the game did get on Xbox live. Hope it's selling well now after all the effort that went into that game. Was really nice to get it as a gift.

Yeah, but if the game's not going where you want why make it? Also, if you're personally not going where you want to go then why make it? You have to consider the motivations behind a game ... without those then there's no point in making the game.

I think the language behind a game makes a big difference. If it didn't then I think you'd see more games being done in BASIC ... if it didn't matter then the console companies would have dedicated BASIC languages so that games could be pumped out quicker.

The truth is though that it's probably slower ... especially once projects start getting complex at all. C++ is much more organized than BASIC which just goes to crap really quickly. BlitzMax is nice ... but it's almost just like C++ in terms of structure ... but then it's missing some of the more powerful features like operator overloading ... unless that's changed somehow.

You can make a good game in any language but I think that if you can make it in C++ or BASIC you should go with C++ because you are that much more prepared.

As an artist you want to use certain tools which keep you competitive. Using BASIC is the same as you using a CSG modeler for your artwork. Sure it's easier and you can still make some damn nice artwork but it's not the real deal ... it's not top of the line. You don't know because you don't know programming inside and out ... if it functions then you don't care. It's just as easy for me to dismiss 3DS Max and say hey there are successful games that don't use 3DS Max. They are still games and they are still successful ... but in you do have a tendancy to look down on them like a C++ programmer looks down on BASIC.

I'll tell that to the guys who wrote Quake, San Andreas, Battlefield series, Halo, and err... Worms to do away with their basic-esque scripting tools then shall I, or would you like to do it ?


By writting a .dll that can be accessed from any language.


It can make .dll calls, it can already use the latest 3D engines, the same ones that most professional dev teams use. It's just that they cost a few grand.



I played chess 2 days ago, earlier in the year I did a few hundred online chess games, and I still enjoy Civ2... I have 5 or 6 PC games from the last 2 years and none of them are installed any more.



I think you have fundamentally miss-understood them and the industry. It's hard to say for sure unless you actually name the people you are identifying - but I strongly suspect that they are A) Teams of people with a lot of talent and a lot of patience/dev time and B) Using multiple layers of development like everybody else is from C++ down to script.

C++ is a core, but it isn't the whole apple.



Still missing the point I see. C++ is not the standard. If there is a standard at all than it is multi-tiered. Typically C++ or C++/ASM at the low level, and a huge variety of all sorts above that.

If your looking to work in the industry then as I said earlier learning C++ isn't a bad move - but it is neither essential and nor is it where most of the jobs are.

Exactly! You need that core. If you use BASIC such as Blitz then that's YOUR core. Why use that as the core of your engine when C++ is so much more versatile?

Because i'm an indie.

When you are not getting paid for your time, then obviously you want to work for other *personal* reasons. However, few people achive their goals in one go. My wife and I were just watching the second episode of a documentary called "Searching for Shakespeare". And it took him years of hard work and luck to succeed--even though he was as talented at age 6 as he was when he was "discovered" and finaly made it.

As for the language to use. Most commercial companies use a combination of C++ and something more basic to control the gameplay that non coders can pick up and use quickly, since much of the level design and gameplay is often prototyped by level designers and fleshed out and finished by artists.

Publishers are businesses, they don't discriminate between languages as programmers might. A publisher doesn't care an awful lot about developers, otherwise the industry would not be run the way it is.

Games made in other languages and combinations of languages do get on consoles. So it would seem that Publishers--like all other businesses--don't really care how you make the product that will make them money; basically, they just want the cash.

Except "Import Doom3Engine.o". The reason you aren't seeing DOOM3 like graphics in BlitzMAX, is because nobody here can afford the license, not because BlitzMAX can't use it.

Since bmk can compile and link C++ source, I don't see how C++ on it's own is "more versatile".

It's a poor artist who blames his tools. By the way, you realize that most ports (either to or from consoles) are done by third party developers on contract with the publisher (this is why the PC version of Spider Man 2 sucked hard)? The only exception to this, is where the developers already use some 3rd party cross-platform middleware like RenderWare, and you'll notice that GTA:SA while not using the latest technology (by a long shot - certainly nothing like DOOM3) and with marginal changes to the underlying sourcecode, sold like mad, and probably went everywhere RockStar wanted it to.

Imagine that.

Biggest dissapointment of the year IMO.

Yes, and if I had the money for Renderware I might considering using that. Of course C++ with Torque is cheaper and I'm learning more about the inner workings with it. I'm not advocating that any indie jump ship from whatever tools they are using and use C++ alone. However, I think at a certain point it'd be wise for any programmer to start using it so they can fully realize their projects.

personally, i'd rather write my game in b3d and
then if it had any interest, i could port the code to
c++, this way i can cut down my developmwenrt
time and also avoid using c++ unless absolutely
neccasarry.

It seems to me that the trick is to write a good game and not tell anyone it was made with Blitz until AFTER it has sold like hell =]

Have you completed any games in Blitz yet?



Everyone knew Aerial Antics was made with Blitz ... it didn't stop people from being interested in it.

I'd still choose something else today to make its sequel. The reason being is A) I've already been down that road and B) Now I'd be looking to get the game onto more platforms.

Which pretty much translates to exactly what somethingfunky said =]

Not really ... I wouldn't touch Blitz/Any form of BASIC for Aerial Antics 2 ... nor would I touch it for anything else. Now that I know what happens when you make a game in BASIC I would much prefer to just begin any game from the beginning with something more flexible. My understanding of C++ is growing by leaps and bounds and I'm accomplishing things with it. I don't see why I would want to avoid it. Once you've got libs for C++ you're not losing any time by using it.

I think thats a bit unfair, AA mainly failed through a lack of marketing and not taking the game far enough.

Judging by most people comments the flight model is pretty cool but there isn't enough variety to keep people hooked, and being single player and playing on unpopulated environments means that it gets pretty lonely once you get bored of the simple trigger gameplay.

Most of those problems could be addressed but would take some effort, same with the marketing, which we didn't really do much of anyway. So I don't think the failure of our games to sell is a good reason to dismiss Blitz as a viable game development platform.

Having worked on the Clubman Mini racer with Cygnus I can see that with the right tools some pretty amazing things can be done with blitz, which always surprises me, and the technology avaliable has really moved on by leaps and bounds since we made Aerial Antics.

Morduun, Cygnus and Antony have done stuff that is pretty cutting edge, and mostly held back by things other than blitz basic itself.

All true ... and I don't mean to dismiss Blitz. It's an excellent tool. However, I still don't see a reason to use it if I had the ability to produce similar results with C++.

There's also the fact that once you make a mistake with Blitz fixing things is a hassle. That's more what I meant. I had the same problem with True-Vol and Aerial Antics. I set the games up one way ... and then after the game is complete I want to do something else ... which pretty much means re-writing the game.

With things like BlitzMax or C++ the OO helps you structure things in a way that let's you change things without breaking something else. I haven't done anything large scale with BlitzMax yet but so far it seems great for organization ... which is one area I don't care for much about Blitz3D. I have a set method now for coding games in Blitz3D which is much better than what I used for Aerial Antics ... but still I just feel like making another game with it would lead to failure ... or just not as much success as what I could achieve by learning and embracing some new stuff.

I absolutely loved the game, but I never even knew it was released. Saw a demo and played the demo a while ago, and i was impressed. Would certanily have sold to me. Consider that im a very picky gamer- I dont own Doom3, HL2 or any real modern games- just prince of persia... then realise if i'd have bought it, plenty of others would have.

I never saw an advert.

And I would probrably suffer the same fate- through lack of funds, I would not be able to advertise.

If nobody knows of the product, hows it going to sell? AA is a top Indie Game as far as i can see, and it looks way better than any other Indie game i've seen completed.

I never saw the game except on Jeremy's sig, I know nothing about AA, but I know a lot about the attitude of indie developers who release a game and when it only sell £100 quids worth they consider it a flop and move on.

It would come as a suprise to those programmers that most sucessful indie games start with the same level of sales as the flops.

it would be ever more shocking if somebody suggested to those same indie programmers that maybe they should focus on their week skills rather than improving on their strengths ... like, how about learning to do marketting and sales rather than learning a new programming language when they're already good programmers.

I hate to say it Jeremy because on other threads I agree with you and you seem an OK person but your views opinions and attitudes expressed in this thread leave me to conclude that your rathe dens and very blinkered about having failed in order to find something else to blame for your previous failures.

You seem to think that because you've been there, done it, and failed that you know what the indie market is all about. This is a completely incorrect point of view, but it is a point of view so you will doubtless disagree because you've already been there, done it and failed.

I argue that instead of preaching you should instead try to be learning from the people who have been there, done it, and suceeded.

I hope I havn't got too personal with those remarks, it wasn't my intention to insult but hopefully to educate on a point I believe I am right on.

the answer to your question Jermery is, no.

The game got a tremendous amount of downloads (it's conversion ratio was low). It was in Computer Gaming Monthly (among about 3 other magazines around the world). It's on Garage Games ... heck it was on G4 TV! The game would need a serious make over to become a big seller. It needs multiplayer and it needs a real adventure mode instead of just being a training simulator. Not saying it couldn't be a success if I redo it in BASIC but I'd rather have another go at it with a C++ based tool so that when I put the effort in I get a modular setup and I don't have to worry as much about porting it ... because I really want to make console games.

Becky is partially right ... I'm focusing on programming when I could re-focus on marketing Aerial Antics and adjusting it slightly. However, during the first 6 months I adjusted it once a month with completely new demo schemes etc... Nothing helped month to month so I did get a bit fed up and burnt out on Aerial Antics. The thing is though ... that the new tools I'm using come with better marketing because Garage Games will support my Torque project a lot more than my Blitz project and they've had some very successful Torque games that are now on Xbox. That's where I want to go.

All that publicity doesnt mean much If i still didnt see it :P :)

Only concern I have with the current torque project is that it's a shooter. Which despite its differences to the average arena FPS/TPS game is still in the same genre as many of the big commercial games which it will be in direct competition with.

Whether Garage games will be interested in it for their marketing really depends. They already have 2 commercial FPS made with it, and shooters are what their engine is known and originaly built for, so they may not actually be all that interested. Hard to say at this point, there's definately a big risk involved. And I do think that AA was dropped mainly through lack of enthusiasm when sales proved far less than expected.

I submitted to that robosoft 3 app, and several hundred web sites, and we submitted to a few others, the only money we spent was on download.com and that was it I think.

It only takes 1 week link in the chain and the whole thing snaps.

If you add all the elements up that lead to an indie game getting an online sale, unlike other mediums, lots of 90% effectives dont add up to 90%. They add up to 90% of 90% of 90% of 90% and so on, so very rapidly you end up with no sales.

A game being a turkey can lead to no sales as you would expect, but a great game can do equally as badly too. If just one part of the marketting / demo / purchasing system is not up to scratch then the whole project fails.

The critical thing is to understand and learn where your weeknesses are. If you havn't identified the mistakes you made with AA you'll be prone to making the same mistakes again.

That might sound harsh phrased like it's your fault, but if you consider the game to have failed then you must also accept that the failing was on your part because if you want to blame it on other factors you'll never get anywhere... the buck stops with yourself, it has too, as it's your project. If other people have sucessful projects then clearly they are doing something differently, and it isn't just because Lunar Lander games are out of fashion this week...

Having established that the only person to blame when our projects flop is ourselves, the next thing to do is work out why it flopped and what we can do about it.

A focus group / market research can be very beneficial in this respect. Around the Blitz community or perhaps another programming board you have the opportunity to exploit a very useful and knowledgeable focus group - but the market research you must do elsewhere, as all anybody here cares about is making or selling their own games and not buying yours.

In the spirit of that 'focus group' the first thing I would say to you is that it wasn't until the third level, after watching the demo play for a moment and after reading the website that I even knew what the Aerial Antics game was about.

I just couldn't categorise it and even after starting to play I still didn't know what sort of game I was playing. I feel this was probably a mistake. I came to realise I was playing Lunar Lander, but whilst that isn't the most glamorous of marketting concepts I would still have mentioned somewhere that the goal of each level was to land on the target pad as close to the middle as possible.

This was a mistake on the web site, not with the game itself.

I was told there where 50 levels, I played 5 and they all had the same scenery. This gave me the impression I wasn't going to get much diversity by buying the game. Mistake two A.

Mistake two B: The demo provided no real gameplay challenges. A demo should not be very difficult because if a player cannot complete it they wont buy the game - but on the other hand if there is no challenge then i'm going to get the impression the game wont challenge me either.

Mistake two was the composition of the demo.

None of these mistakes so far have anything to do with your ability to program or the tool you used.

I hope you find those thoughts beneficial Jeremy and that you take them in the spirit that they where intended. They are of course just my opinions and i'm a cranky witch so dont take them too close to heart ;)

From what I recall of Aerial Antics, we burned away for 4 months, after which we tweaked a further 3 months waiting for Garage Games to get their act together.

At this point we needed a break from Aerial Antics having pretty much burnt ourselves out. When AA was finished we threw together our web page and submitted to about 400 hosting and directory sites.

Since then we have made several hundred dollars and gotten interest from many publishers, some of whom wanted changes, like multiple characters with more character rather than the original generic one we had intended. Spiced up frontend GUI, and a story that was more exciting in the realm of Superhero school.

Jeremy was disillusioned pretty early with the whole thing since he really expected to make $1000 a month within a few months of release. I kind of lost interest in the game, as I didn't really feel like fixing it and would rather do something else later working on a couple of experimental projects followed by a lot of contract work.

I think our failure was down to lack of enthusiasm for the game after the initial disappointment of it not selling as well as we had hoped. It was quite an achievement for the time, and with another 6 months of effort on a sequel with more varied gameplay, characters and mission based gameplay rather than a training game, along with some proper marketing it could still be a runaway success.

Something to think about in the future, afterall the response from the media for the game has been exceptional, there's no doubt in my mind that the game can be a success if we can be bothered to make the effort :).

Just you two let me know when its done! ^.^

/me runs off to the pub again.

I worry about this too ... but then when I get to play it with someone I'm reminded how fun it is. Those guys can't resist a good gameplay mechanic. The new project ... although involves shooting/combat requires a new thought process ... I think after they play it they'll dig it. Just have to make sure our IGC demo is a good demonstration of the concept. I think we're on our way.

On Aerial Antics ...

Every year I show some kids from a career planning class the ropes of the video game industry. Every year I'm working on a new game and they get a sneak peak at it. Way back when I was working on True-Vol the kids dug it. They had fun playing that game but I was still too green to make a polished enough experience to sell. It was a fun game but lacked the polish. The next semester I had Aerial Antics running. The kids wanted to play True-Vol instead. The game (AA) was too frustrating for them.

Here's where I think I went wrong. I took a fairy complex gameplay mechanic which might appeal to flight sim guys and I wanted to mate it to a cartoony colorful aesthetic. After all cell shading was all the rage. I said it in my Garage Games .plan when I was looking for an artist. I wanted to combine Pilotwings gameplay with Jet Grind Radio's aesthetic. What we created ... I don't think bodes well with your typical PC flight game player.

More skilled gamers who would enjoy the challenge were turned off by it's kiddie image and less skilled cartoon lovers were turned on by the aesthetics but turned off by the tough gameplay.

Anyway ... long story short the kids this past semester loved my current project. They ate it up like they've never eaten up any game I've made. What I'm working on right now is different enough to market and make noticeable ... but it's similar enough that everyone will know immediately how to play it.

As for success and failure. My only goal with Aerial Antics was to get published. Yes I wanted to make some more money and I thought that achieve publication on Garage Games would all but guarantee that. I was wrong on that front but nevertheless I achieved my goal. My new goal is to join Orbz, Think Tanks, and Marble Blast on Xbox/360. I'd also like to be able to make a living from this ... but I think it's usually best to put the money secondary ... it will come if you are inspired ... but inspiration will never come from seeking money.

As far as I can tell from a few posts the GG games on Xbox Live aren't doing very well with barely a game avaliable to join etc. Only gleaned this from some posts on the GG forums, and Orbz only shipped this week I think, so perhaps that one will do better.

I'm mostly in it for fun and money.I really can't see myself doing anything else but make games for a living. I've done the commercial thing already so I've achieved all my goals as far as where I want my games to go. I'm just looking for is a reasonable stream of income so I don't have to get a boring "real job" lol.

Yeah it's true ... but Xbox Live arcade isn't built into Xbox like it will be with the 360. I would have checked the games out but you have to mail away to Microsoft for the disc ... what a hassle (though I'll probably get to it eventually). So only the hardest of the hardcore have probably gone and got the disc and played the games.

Anyway, it's exciting that the games are on Xbox at all. I'm thinking though that if the game is good enough that you could eventually go to retail also.

I think if you are going to commercially release games then you have to have commercial goals too, otherwise there is absolutely no point releasing a game commercially, and anyway have you really released a game commercially if it only sells 125 units ?

All indie games have very slow sales to start with, ask anyone who's done it and they all say pretty much the same thing, internet delivery is a slow take up market. The advantage is that the shelf life is longer than 3 months so if something isn't right it can be fixed and sales can pick up.

If you are really lucky and a little shrewd when your big advertising hits you'll have no 90%'s in your ordering processing and you'll convert your demo's into a lot of sales.

Whilst I think looking at AA objectively I believe that there is a limit to what you could commercially achieve with it, I think on the whole if you've got a game that has the potential to be a hit you still need commercial drive and ambition in order to make it achieve it's potential and that really should be one of the lessons you take out of that project.

Just getting a game onto XBox doesn't isn't a sensible goal. If your going to make just 100 sales you may aswell write freeware, and if your doing it for bragging rights there is nothing so inconsequential as an unknown indie shareware game.

There are no bragging rights if nobody can remember it in 2 months time. Bragging rights are what you get in 10 years time when somebody posts on a games forum "It's a bit like Flight Sim 2004 with a hint of Aerial Antics"...

Let's be honest, if your selling games for money then you are hoping that you can make or suplement your living on games - your next project market research group suggests that it has the potential to be a sucess. You've work on it for ages adding polish. You're heart, your soul, and your commercial future have been put into all it's 30,000 lines of source code...

Don't waste it by launching with ambiguous targets.

Everyone at my school uses "Gamemaker" and "Stagecast" to make games - and they think they're the best. There is only one other guy who doesn't, and he uses DarkBASIC - and the best he's done is made a text-based Pong clone, or something like that.

oops!

THATS a good idea.... ¬.¬

That single person could as well be a n00b anyway :D

But those game-makers, do they come with built-in models, players etc. etc. ? I want to make an analogy to those lame 'music-creators' where you'll find a complete tune in pieces on a sample-CD, and with that music-creator you can put them together again and claim you made it. :P

CS_TBL, i'm with you buddy!!!

Theres a pop/trance song going round recently, about 3 years ago, i found all the samples used to make it, on a single CD... i practically wrote that song using them...
then, one day i go into my local store and here it.. and im like.. "No fucking way- this is all free samples!!!" whats worse. the samples were numbered "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" i beleive, and the majority were still used in that order >.<;;

So, why wasnt I a hit when music 2000 came out? ¬.¬

Actually, i still have a version of the song i did when starting out in FL. sounds absolutely awful!

ok, but, so, uhm, those gamecreators work identical? A bunch o' ready-made models, tunes, fonts, gfx etc. and just click 'n drag 'n drop them together?

Did I say I didn't? Sure I've got goals ... but it seems to me at this point that you cannot accurately predict if something sells or not. However, you can please the right people to let you on a certain platform/publisher/etc... Usually by achieving that is a preview of what will eventually become a good selling game.

I thought I had it nailed with Aerial Antics and so did about 20 publishers. Yes ... there was a point at which we had more publishers than customers trying to get the game! No one could predict from playing the game that it would sell well or not. We got good reviews from Game Tunnel and every other shareware site. Gaming magazines picked up on us, and as I said so did G4 TV.

You can't be looking at the bottom line when developing games or else you'll end up like EA or worse ... Acclaim! Make good games that get those good reviews and get placed for sale by the right people and eventually you'll hit the nail on the head. When you do you'll have yourself a franchise to rely on ... that at least is yours. Then you can expand out and create an ever increasing range of good games and have your bread and butter. However, no one gets any real bread and butter by looking at the bottom line initially.

Hello

Suppose we have many characters in the game performing the same actions
It is cleaner ,in my opinion,to create just one class:
class Actor
{
public :
void SetPosition();
.....
private :
float x,y,z;
....
}

And then to istance the actors :
Jeremy, cs_tbl,Cygnus,Alberto....
and to write :

Jeremy->SetPosition();

rather than creating a type Actor and a SetPosition() function which in someway must discriminate the actors

If you have plenty of functions and plenty of similar objects , you see the difference, imho

However, it seem that everybody agree on one point :

Blitz3D is much easier than C++

We must not forget that Blitz3d is a game oriented programming language while C++ is a general purpose language.
A game programmer can skip a lot of C++ features.
I went through my C++ manual.
I think I can skip 50 - 60 %,no harm.
Some items have nothing to do with game programming,some others are wrapped by the engine , some advanced stuff are not strictly necessary.

In my opinion Blitz should offer two levels : script an pure c++
The Blitz3D SDK should come with a simplified C++ manual as well as with prefabricated classes

it seems to me that the only reason why ppl say to use c++ over b3d is because "experts" program in c++. c++ should be made a lot easier for making games. come on, it shouldn't take two weeks to able to import a mesh into your game.


i have a friend that's having trouble programing in BASIC *snickers*.

Once you know C++ it's not going to take you any more than a few minutes more typing to do the same things you can do with Blitz. Most of game programming is the mental stride you need to take ... not the typing stride in order to complete the race. How much longer does it take me to type this post instead of one with a single sentence? That's about the difference between C++ and Blitz ... and yet C++ offers so many more options for you to be dynamic and also to build new code onto old code so that you go quicker and quicker as you build up your library.

well c++ still stinks.

LOL ... why? It's like the same thing for the most part ...

quoting from a c++ user: "yes! i've done! i've added a texture to this mesh. and it only took me 7 hours! to bad it took 7 hours!"

quoting from a blitz3d user: "yes! i've done! i've added a texture to this mesh and it took me about five seconds. man, i'm going for the world record!"

..hahahahahahaha...coooollll .....

Yeah but the C++ user actually had to learn something about mesh structure, etc... to apply the texture. Where the B3D user just typed EntityTexture() (wonder how long it took Mark to write that function). Anyway, an experienced C++ user won't always take that long to apply a texture. Once they understand what's going on they can write their own texture function which will be just as fast as it would be for any B3D user.

What you're quoting is a C++ and or 3D programming beginner learning about the lower levels of 3D programming ... that's not what it's like once you already have a handle on C++ and 3D programming.

Hello

Ii seems to me that we are mixing up programming language and graphic\sound\input engine
I would never dream to design my own engine starting from directx \ opengl,even though I have a decent knowledge of both API'S
Why a C++ call such as :

John->Texture(tex);

Should be more time consuming than a Blitz3d comand

EntityTexture John,tex ?

I agree with you Jeremy on the last point, if I where to start doing my games in C++ it is most likely I would start creating Blitz3D like "commands" as I needed them.

The reason I have not started doing that yet is because there is no need, everything I want to do with my games I already have Blitz3D commands for.

What Jeremy is saying here is what happens when you want to do something there is no command for in Blitz3D? You're stuck, because Blitz doesnt give you acess to it's C++ core.

That isn't strictly true though, because there are lots of expansions for Blitz3D via .dll's. In many cases the same .dll's you would use in your C++ programs.

Having said that, there aren't any Blitz specific .dll's to add functionality to the 3D core, such as shaders for example. This is a strong argument - if I wanted to write a program now that had shaders I just couldn't try to do it in Blitz.

Thankfully for Blitz shaders are still not commercially viable in an indie project, only 30-40% of the games playing public has a shader 2.0+ card - let alone the non-games types. This will change, but so will Blitz (although not Blitz3D, but for the future we must look to BlitzMax).

The only real limitation of Blitz3D is that it is an end of line product tied to DirectX 7. This isn't really a bad thing in itself, but in the wider scheme of things there is no DirectX 9 BASIC to fill the void, or at least, there isn't one which is widely compatable with end user systems (i'm well aware of *the other BASIC*, but also it's shortcomings).

It's a strong argument, if you want to be writting cutting edge software you cannot really do it in BASIC at the moment. Having said that, to write AAA standard software as a small time indie developer without large art departments and stuff is a bit of a no no anyway.

So for this reason I think Blitz3D is overall a far better choice for the independant programmer. Is it a be all and end all? No it isn't. Is Jeremy wrong to learn C++? No he isn't.

On the other hand, the original purpose of this thread: Are C++ programmers right to look down on the output of BASIC programmers and sneer? No they arn't, they're out right stupid for doing so - but it's their loss.

"..but for the future we must look to BlitzMax"

"The only real limitation of Blitz3D is that it is an end of line product tied to DirectX 7 "

A contradiction, in my opinion
You can update Blitz3D to directx 9.0 without making heavy modifications to the programming languages.
The main reason for BlitxMax is to take advantages of OOP features

You might have the skill to do that Alberto but I really dont have a clue how, significantly though - the reason to update the DX version in Blitz would be to make use of DX9 operations like shaders and object instancing.

If you can do that then there's a lot of money in it for you if you put your keyboard typing fingers where your mouth is and make some serious money out of the Blitz community selling an expansion module, because we already know there is a huge demand for it already. There's even another thread at this very moment offering Mark a cash incentive to do much the same thing.

The fact that it hasn't been done yet over the last few years since we moved on from DX7 suggests that my original post is closer to the reality of the situation.

It's not that i'm doubting you because i'm sure upping the system requirements to DX9 could be done very quickly, but making use of DX9 features and changing the 3D core of Blitz to make use of those features is another matter entirely and that is what I was referring to in my post.

I mean that you can update Blitz3d to DX 9.0 while mantaining the same programming language structure.

I did not say it is an easy task

DarkBasicPro is DX 9.0 based but it is a Basic like programming language same as Blitz3d .
Well it is a mess , but you get the point.

On the contrary BlitzMax introduces new OOP features

"... everything I want to do with my games I already have Blitz3D commands for."

I agree with you on this point.
But if you can evoke Blitz3d commands via C++ calls you can design better structured programs, in my opinion

Otherwise, Why BlitzMax ?

Yes ... C++ and BlitzMax both lend a helping hand in structuring your programs. BlitzMax is great it seems but how portable is it? We've heard it is very portable but when will we be programming console games with it?

I don't see why you couldn't program consoles with it. We are working on an XBox 360 game using the Unreal Engine and a large wad of the game play code will be unreal script!

Sure you will need to have some hardcore guys add hooks into the hardware but that's really only a few man months work.

Hell, once it's done you could then sell the backed to other blitz users who what to get in on the console game.

on the making money points that you guys/gals have been talking about... maybe the AA project lacked some of the following...

it didn't have a super terriffic, gooo gahhh, announcement campaign... you gotta be all over the media, if you expect any real action...

print ads...
in the mid 80's a ninth of a page ad space was expensive as hell... so i can imagine what it would cost today... and i had to buy 3 at a whack and place the ads 2 months in advance... so, i'd advise against magazine ads unless you are really hell bent, and have a plan... and some finances to devote...

the internet...
today you've got the internet though... that's rapidly becoming the new media, so use it like it was the new media... flood the sites that you think the audience would be interested in your stuff with press releases. and you can still send press releases to the mags... just as good, sometimes better than ads... and cheaper...

niche audience...
the best thing that you can do is to make a game, application, simulation, service... that has a niche audience waiting... a new type flight sim... a more customized fishing game... deer hunter type stuff with a twist will still sell... online comics, that move... that put a player into the pages... a new genre :) check out the art style that this guy did http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42919
you can make this same type of comic book look to your 3D games...

there's just so much out there for indies who really want to do something... the hard part is identifying a niche...

i would not make a monster vs human fps... no matter how good it was... there's DOOM3, and everyone else who thinks they can out DOOM DOOM3... a crowded arena you can't realistically hope to survive in...

hey... have ya seen some of the latest trailers from them... and that MGS thingeee... you can't compete with em...plain and simple...

c++ or Blitz3D... you're gonna loose...


and as far as the BASIC vs c++ thing... it's a non factor nowadays... if you have a good 3D lib or 'engine'... it doesn't matter much what language tool you use... most of the work is already done for you...

Blitz3D is at a disadvantage... a slight one... unless you can write your own game engine with it... then, put your game on top of it...

BlitzMax is in a better situation... it can, like c++, link to exisitng game engines... hey, why reinvent the wheel if a team has already done a good job for ya...

so... the c++ vs B3D arguement is really a lil silly as far as i'm concerned...

there's just too much other stuff you gotta think about that goes into making a successfull game...

--Mike

I’m not a programmer but this is based on my experience working with programmers.

I think for most people the weakness isn't the language but their own technical limitations as far as realizing concepts and executing them efficiently in a gameplay environment.

From what I understand, no matter which language you’re going to use, doing sophisticated things requires a lot of talent and conceptual logic. Not so much programming skill, but understanding how to make something work.

If that’s correct, then what blitz does is reduce the amount of garbage required to make things happen, and allow you to spend more time concentrating on logic without getting bogged down in a quagmire of unnecessary detail.

It makes it easier for a creative coder to achieve more as far as simple games, but it also allows an intermediate programmer with talent to achieve more than a good programmer technician ever could.

It would thus seem to be a very useful language for many because as I have said before—at the end of the day what really counts is the finished product; not the language in which it’s written.

please, donot post any more in this thread.

let red's (edit: um Evak's) be the final say.

thank you very much. ;-)

No ... I'm killing this thread remember!

yah, ok Jeremy...

please continue to post here in this big long friggin thread.

thanks, now i shtup. ;-)

Let 'er rest in peace ... with my comments at the bottom of the grave!

¬.¬ You guys have burned a circle in the floor!

Just before we finish up, we are all agread now right?

...did I mention the Dark Side? ; )

This was a facinating read!

..well..I think MAV's from Basic is more cute than one from C++.. :))

Yes. There can be only one. :o>

Someone owes me a new down cursor key. {No, I don't have a scroll wheel on my trackpad!}

Ctrl+End works wonders! :P

I dunno about that - I've forgotten the question. :O

... I bet you read the last page of Agatha Christie books first. That would totally spoil the buildup of suspense as I try to locate the last point where I checked in and the sensawunda as I watch the arguement unfold post by post.

Don't know about the question, either. But the answer is definitely 42. I am sure we all agree on that... ;)

Barney

At 250 reactions we should continue in a "So many people ... part #2" This length is becoming a pain :D

I concur the answer is 42.

And ... when we're not talking about hitchhiking I'll agree that there's a correct tool for every job. In some cases BASIC is a better tool than C++. Of course it's also true that C++ is a better tool for some things than BASIC. Highly dynamic large scale game engines being one of them and the one I'm interested in for the future. Will I use BASIC still, Yes! But that won't stop me from using C++ when appropriate and I don't think that just because you can make A game with BASIC that you should limit yourself from learning C++ so you can make a more controllable core to build your game on.

Sorry, 42 always was wrong. Funny though it was to have an answer that didn't match the question - the real meaning to life, universe and everything is actually 1.618 as calculated correctly by Mr Fibonacci many years earlier.

everything!!!???


--Mike

except you mike, you are en exception to everything. no know laws in this universe can discribe you :p

well ... without that number we wouldn't be here to discuss it (or anything else forthat matter)!

well, thx max... if you really had the slightest idea of how true your statement was... the paradgm that is your world, would shift so dramatically... that you'd run off to some holy mountain, become a monk, and spend the rest of your days trying to understand one tenth of the uniqueness that i represent...

but, i digress.... actually, i was just wondering... just how much of everything is she, or Mr. Fibonacci actually aware of...

everything... it's a verrrry big set there, ya know... that's an awful lotta stuff inclusive in the set of everything...

i was just wondering....

--Mike

Mike you are a funny guy :)

Some people who've been using Blitz for awhile will recall a time when Mark approached Microsoft about Blitz being an alternative development tool for the XBox (prior to it's release).

Microsoft basically told him to take flying leap... Blitz would have been serious competition for another software product that was REQUIRED for X-Box development --> VC++

(HAHAHA.. it's still alive!!!)

Well, MS should reconsider! Actually, Mark should sell the source code to B3D along with the console SDK kit ... this way you still need VC++ to develop!

YOU DARE ASSUME THE AUDACITY TO PRETEND TELL MICROSOFT WHAT THEY SHOULD BE DOING!!!!!!!

forgive him oh great and powerful Gates... for he knows not what he says...


--Mike

Do you need permission to release software for the XBOX? Or is it just that they won't let you in on all the architecture?

I gather you need a license to release something you've written and if Blitz users cannot get that license then it wouldn't matter if Blitz itself is capable of creating an XBox game or not.

It is a bit shortsighted by Microsoft though. Instead of us rushing out to buy Visual C++, instead, most of us here just arn't programming the XBox. Infact, out of all of us the nearest we have is Jeremy who'd like too...

Which says a lot about how clever Microsoft's strategy was because there are a few really talented community members here that are just ignoring their platform completely.

Of course it's not actually a problem for Microsoft until us users are putting our work on to other consoles, which is perhaps how Mark should solve the problem.

no console developer would allow amature developers to develop casual games for their consoles untill recently when the Xbox got Xbox live and Microsoft decided there was a market.

If Mark tried again, there would probably be a better chance now than there was back in 2001/2002.

THere really wouldn't be many games released anyway, since most blitz games lack the high quality and production values required to get on a console. It would be handy for the handfull of people with games good enough to make it. And there's always a chance that a xbox blitz would motivate existing blitzers or attract new developers who have the ability to create the games MS want.

I'm not sure how much Mark would be expected to pay to develop something like that, and perhaps he should try again now that MS are actually lookinh for developers of simple fun networked games.

MS did have the incubator program which was pretty cool, gave you a dev kit for free on 6 month trial, and sold you debug kits for pretty cheap, and about all you need to develop games most of the time. Was a really good deal for Serious indies, but when you look at how many incubator games actually got published. There were less than 5 that I know of. It's just too hard to get published these days without a team with a proven track record.

You don't get it. You cannot sell something, unless there is an interested buyer. In the case of XBox development, this means exclusively Microsoft, and they kind of have their own thing going, and aren't going to let anyone else play with their ball.

I mean it makes sense. Why would you volunteerilly surrender your monopoly? No. If BlitzMAX is ever going to have a shot at the consoles, it's going to be the Revolution or PS3. Neither Nintendo or Sony own the development tools for these.

Now if Metrowerks a large company which develops CodeWarrior, the number one (pretty much only) choice for IDE/Compiler/Debugger cross-platform and console C++ developers, aren't allowed to make an XBox version of their tools, what on earth makes you think BRL has a snowballs chance in hell?

Yeah, I'm sure most BlitaMAX users would appreciate being forced to buy VC++.

They don't care. They don't want you developing games for the XBox. They want SquareEnix, Bungie, Rareware, Sega and most importantly EA Sports to developfor the XBox. You don't have anything they want.

Again, if Metrowerks aren't allowed to compete, what makes you think BRLs situation is any different? Microsoft do not want competition. They are actively persueing a business plan that will tie-in developers to Visual Studio. What on earth could BRL or the Blitz community offer them that a) They don't already have or b) could convince them to release control of their monopoly. Short answer: Nothing.

You want to develop console games, stick to Nintendo and Sony.

only, Microsoft are the only ones that allow indies to develop indie games for their system. I'm not talking about commercial games, but Microsoft want new independent titles developed for Xbox live arcade, and are lending out free dev kits to developers who's games they want on their system.

If you want to make commercial games for consoles you can pretty much forget it. You need too much prior experience and a proven team with many successful shipped titles under their cumulative belts before a publisher will even talk to you seriously.

But right now, MS want good shareware games for both Xbox and Xbox360. Garage games are now Xbox360 developers and are developing a xbox 360 version of their shader engine for indies to port their games over to Xbox arcade on the xbox360.

I find it kind of amusing that MS were the first to support independent games :)

currently they have for $10 - $15 the following games.

Alien Sky
Astropop
Bankshot billiards
Bejeweled
Dangerous Mines
Fuzee Fever
Guardian
Hardwood Solitaire
Mutant Storm
Ricochet
Super Colapse 2
Zuma Deluxe
Feeding frenzy
Marble blast
Atomaders
Dino & Aliens
Think Tanks
HamsterBall
Orbz
MS Pacman
Namco Vintage
Bookworm

Well I'll swap experiences with you some other time. :o>

Well thankfully I don't. I'm thinking it'll take at least a generation more for consoles to catch up to what I want to do.

Yes. The point to consider here, is that Garage Games consist of proven commercial developers (game of Tribes anyone?) and also not directly competing against Microsoft, but most importantly, they are adding value in the form of good games to the XBoxes otherwise rather so and so line-up. I mean aside from Crimson Skies and Mech Assault, what must-have games are there on the XBox?

I find it amusing that Garage Games are considered "independant". What does that mean these days? Was Bungie "independant" before they where bought up by Microsoft? Is Blizzard "independant"?

Oh and by the way, Nintendos (and probably the worlds) best selling game in the history of all time, the original Pokemon, was developed by "Independants" without a single commercial game under their belt (much less several).

Garage Games was started by a few of guys who lost their original company to greedy corporate suits. Then they started a new company from the ground up with their own money to make a place where game developers would actually control their own business. They didn't get paid for the first 4 years. Then when they finally did start getting paid it was minimum wage.

Independent means that you funded the stuff out of your own pocket. Microsoft is publicly traded ... their money comes from millions of people buying into the idea ... not a select few who are actually working on and paying for the idea themselves. Bungie was independent before they got bought out by MS. Blitzzard I don't know too much about.

I think MS should reconsider letting BR develop an Xbox version of Blitz. They are looking for smaller casual games and Blitz is perfect for that. Not that there aren't other tools to use that are equally as cheap ... but if Torque and Pop Cap Framework are on board than why not Blitz?

Because Blitz does not require Visual Studio to work. Quite to the opposite, it uses GPL software (GNU Compiler Collection).

Torque doesn't require Visual Studio to work either. I think MS makes a lot more money on the games developed than on the software and I can't imagine them being closed to middleware like Blitz. Maybe they aren't keen on Metrowerks because that is a direct competitor in the compiler arena but Blitz isn't.

Surely Torque on it's own, is not enough to make a commercial XBox game? You's still need an SDK, no?

How about what you are capable of?

I might be mistaken but most of them can do sine scrollers...

To make a commercial Xbox game you could probably still use Eclipse to compile the .exe. There is a special DX 9 Xbox version of Torque and frankly I don't know if it specifically needs to be compiled with VC++ but I doubt it. If you can compile it on a PC at all then it probably doesn't matter.

Really, my point is that Torque runs on PC, Mac, Linux, PS2, PSP, and Xbox (you can compile it with just about any C++ compiler there is) ... so it's not an MS only player and there'd be no reason for middleware like Blitz not to exist for Xbox development. Mark should have another talk with MS.

..well..last few posts talking about capabilities of Torque...I must say, even I really like Basic a lot, Im on Jeremy's side for Torque support in this case when we talking about multiplatform portability...I have it, and I like it a lot and I did find it very easy to use and manage all aspects of engine, I need...yesterday I purchase Torque Shader Engine, and its really cool stuff..of course it is my oppinion, but I think this is really serious tool for multiplatform game development..

What about it?

Funny. Do you write your own jokes?

Well I never said Torque wasn't a good product, I said C++ wasn't a good language.

There's nothing inherently bad with C++ as a language any more than there is anything inherently wrong with Basic. It's just that C++ is often used for stuff that is better done with other tools because of a strange mentality amonst would be pro's that C++ is the only choice.

Just like there's nothing inherently bad with Linux as an OS, any more than there is anything wrong with Windows.

The difference is the goals of the language. The goals of Basic is to create readable programs, comparable to plain English. The goal of C++ is to introduce Simula-like object oriented principles into a C-like language, without adding any more keywords or operators to the language than absolutely nessecary. C ofcourse was written in the glorious days when AT&T hackers ruled the world. Sure, there are a lot of things (like STL) that make C++ more sensible, but it's still fundamental design restrictions from the early 70's that dictate the way we program today, many of which (such as storage concerns, and compilation restrictions) havn't been an issue for at least the last decade...

Oh lord....... ¬.¬

yeah... i was going along with him until he brought up this Linux crap...

mother of god... is there something wrong with the boy!!


--Mike

You realize C was "invented" by Dennis Ritchie, the guy who wrote Unix, and Basic while not strictly invented, was certainly popularized by Microsoft who in the early days made BASIC interpreters for pretty much any machine there was.

I don't see what's wrong with it. The same minds behind Unix/Linux and C, the same minds behind Basic and Windows...

i was just kidding 'Duck... calm down...

any rational person would know that there Linux is just as good/bad/perfect/flawed as Windows is....

besides... again, your information is incorrect... and therefore are misleading you to jump to incorrect conclusions, resulting in your off base assertive statements ...



if you don't believe me... research this document...
http://pangea.stanford.edu/computerinfo/unix/overview/unixoverview.html


ya see... you keep making these statements 'Duck... which, on the surface appear to be quite plausible, and you appear to be an authority on what you are talking about... but, to anyone who has any real knowledge or experience on the subject, it is clear that you have no real knowledge of what is being discussed.

anyone who has even the slightest awareness of the topic at hand, immediately realizes that you are no authority whatsoever...


totally irrelevant... Linux is based on an entirely different code... which has nothing to do with either...

seriously, and this is no put down... you should really try and get the real facts before making these unfounded assertions.

[serious mode off]

'duckisms... again you come up with another one... and what's more amazing, is that you actually believe em yourself...


--Mike

Die thread die!!!

...

hahahahahaaaaaaa.... DH, you really have tooooooo much free time on your hands... :)


the guy was wrong... he was dead wrong... he's was soooooo wrong, and he doesn't even realize the depths of his wrongness... i can only hope that my lil bit of good natured ribbing will open his eyes to just how wrong he is...

he's not only wrong... he takes his wrongness, and then builds upon it, to create a mountain of wrong...


now, there's nothing inherently wrong with being wrong... except this guy goes around posting bits from his mountain of wrong all over this board... not as an opinion, but as fact...

this isn't the first time...

it isn't the second time...

it isn't the tenth time...

god... the poor guy seems to make a career out of misreading googled up half facts, and then spouting em off as if they were indeed factual...

hey... i'm actually doing people like you a favor DH... you're the type most susceptible to believing his sorta stuff, and following him down the bunny trail to looney land...


--Mike

We all know FlameDuck is the Cliff Claven of BlitzBasic...

But that's why we dig him :)

This thread is like one of those really ancient trees ... we need to preserve it and see how long it can live ... it MUST LIVE!!!

Maybe we need another thread...

You can't blame people for have this view of BASIC - I mean, it's called BASIC. Which implies that it's easy. But what I don't understand is that why people think easy things can do less. Like coding HTML and HTML WYSIWYG editors. Everyone thinks coding HTML is better, and although it CAN do more, it's not at all a practical choice for a beginner.

I think one reason is to bascially show off. No pro wants to be caught using a simple language.

And I'm sure every thing I said was covered in the last 200-something posts.

They should just change the "Beginners" in Basic to "Bloody good" !

Here is your poster Red!

..HAHAHAHAHAHA...what a mess becouse of the Basic..ha?..you see how complex situations can be coused by such a simple thing like basic ;) hehe...calm down boys...basic, C, C++ or something from outer space, I dont care if final product is good stuff.. ;) enjoy life..I mean..coding.. :)

o.O?

*gets a new job*

see DH... these guys know what they're talkin' bout...


and your posters are getting a lil lame btw...

--Mike

What does Al Gore have to do with the Internet anyway? I see Civilization 4 includes his picture under "Fiber Optics" technology discovery. Someone clarify?

Oh and another thing, i thought mark coded the forums so a thread is deleted when it reaches 256 posts (1 byte oh yes). Guess not.... :\

Because (in a way) Al Gore claimed he invented the Internet.



That isn't my creation, I merely leeched it. But it fits your personality

al gore did invent the internet. ask him if you don't believe me. :)

Ignore the imposter thread called "So many people have a prejudiced view of Basic (2)"... this is the true fount of wisdom !!!

I have it on reliable authority that the 666th post in any thread opens a gateway to hell and daemons stream through (from Unix sytems no doubt) to devour the Internet.

DH... why does that fit my personality.... i don't see the connection...

Al Gore has never pulled your panties down in front of everyone here... like i did on so many occasions :)

or has he...


or maybe you see something out of the fact that because 'Duck was totally wrong about that unix/Linux babble he posted, and i pointed that out to him, and since he's your god, and your nose is never more than 2 inches from his behind, you feel the need to try and defend him... :P

hey... it's ok DH... i understand... i don't mind... you're only being the best that you can be...

... which right now, doesn't look like too much.



--Mike

The Scoreboard rears it's head again!

Red Ocktober = Genius


And Everyone else = Spongebob


So the score is (as it always seems to be for some reason) Red > Everyone!

not everyone Dark Half... just you... and the other spongebobs that act like you...

you're seeing a whole team of psychiatrists... aren't you... and not the cheap ones either :P


--Mike

Just....Three...More...Posts!

Of nonesense..

the loading-time of this page is downright evil..

Nah, only 1 more!

300TH POST!
You don't hear that very often.

This topic is interesting. and my view is there's no reason why you can't make a kick arse game in Basic over C++.

C++ is better but harder to use, but as long as you have a mint idea, you can code it in anything. Even Flash! :/

Wow i also had to enter a >=300posts thread. I had to hunt my scrollbar... :O) But can ya also beat 1k?

My point of view:

According to the project and if you have the freedom of choice (by the way still a cool album from devo!) then take the tool which simply does the job best in terms of having fun and getting it done easy and fast...


Greetings,

taumel

I knew someone had to do 300! It's some kinda basic human nature. I think post 256 (or 255!) was more significant personally.

256 as you started with 1. ;O)

Good point, bet your For loops never go wrong! In fact there's a good point, In C++ you end up writing to random memory if you go out of bands wherease Blitz Basic warns you, yay!

:O)

Oh no due to using different tools i also fail sometimes but hmmm this reminds me of the first time i was thinking of how to do a bootblock-menu/loader. How do i know after cli has been started which program was selected without using the system....well i only wrote it into a memory area which was never touched and read it out later on....man was i proud! ;O)


Greetings,

taumel

I remember the first time I discovered you could reboot an Amiga and rip all the sounds and pictures (with the correct modulation) from the memory, amazing!

Ahhh yeah yeah ripping and bootloading...
Another good one was that you could write your own freezer if you had some extra-mem (something like the 2MB golem box). It was good for doing fast saves into mem while coding and before testing...

sounds good. We are off topic now as this is 680x0 assembly hoho.

Aren't such threads often spinning into off-topic and then coming back...at least a few more entries and it was nice anyway :O)

We stayed on topic for so long, then we had the typical inter-personal flame war that usually crops up at post 25, now we're talking about Amiga's...

The only reason this post is carrying on is because some nerds think it's funny to keep 1 thread alive, this self perpetuating nerdism isn't going to achieve anything positive at all - except maybe an increased bandwidth bill for Blitz and a test of how robust the forum code is.

Why are we doing it?

Isn't this argument settled already, the Amiga is as dead as the discussion which ended 150 posts ago.

I had this:


and an a4-sized blue one Kernal Reference or something. That was essential for copper program and sound rpogramming etc. Brilliant but complex. It's soo much easier these days. [edit] one of these:

Amigas arent dead, The companies who own it keep dying though...

I just got one :)

hmm, my pic links worked a minute ago, now they don't!

[edit] hosted the pics myself!

@Becky

Do you want a fulminate brilliant playdoyer about humans, especially some of them? Well, i'll just give you a smile. :O)

@Grey Alien:

Your Links are broken. I remember that the hardware manuals had lot's of errors, ahh the green/blue or purple one, i can't remember...

sec taumel I gotta work this out...

>>Do I want a verbal attack brilliant (???) about humans
No thanks, I can make my own
>>,epsecially some of them?
Why target individuals when I can mock an entire species?

taumel : There you go, we had the same manual!

This thread's supposed to be killed by me remember!

Okay i gotta do work again...

@Grey Alien

And so hopefully the same errors... ;O)
But i remember that the design was looking great for those days.

taumel: Did you check the book pics, I got them working?

Yes but then we are talking about different ones. *googling*
Ah well yeah here they are, these were mine:

Loads shotgun ...

post the text for the link as no doubt you are looking at the same site which my links failed from.

It has some kind of wierd remote linking protection. I copied the link into a browser window and get the picture, then when I came back and refreshed had all 4 pictures... strange. Now I see all of them when I re-enter the thread.

Aims ...

Yep so i suspect you did the same as me and uploaded the pics just to your own account.

Jake Birkett, that's you? How old is the picture with the baby?
Am i talking to the long haired or the small person? ;O)

ha! I still have my amiga kernel manual somewhere too...

And I have one portion of my bedroom wall that has a ton of C code snippets that I printed out and pasted on the wall for quick reference. Even though I haven't had a desk in that corner of the room for about 12 years... and haven't developed on an amiga in even longer. :)

what abut your Lattice C COmpiler Manual.... anyone still got that???

--Mike

think I still have my watcom manual... that count?

Fires ...

dodges pellets ....

tamuel: You mean the pic of the long hair and the baby on the computer? My first son (he's the baby) is 4.5 years old now and he was about 1 then. I've moved now, so different room, desk and PC!

Curses ... Re-Loads ...

C++ is rubbish

@Grey Alien

Reminds me of some situations where my daugther sits with me on the chair while i'm trying to work and then after a few moments she tries to grab the keyboard or the mouse. And if you just move it a little bit out of reach she reeeaacccchhheeess out till she grabs it again... ;O)

Well that would explain why some threads including some of the longest standing and most popular feature requests and bug reports mysteriously vanished without a trace 8-)

taumel: I have made a little picture viewer for my youngest who is 18 months with WinLock.dll that locks out all the keys like Altr+Tab, Windows Key, Ctrl+Esc esc, very useful so they can just bash away no harm done!

Oh i see you also know the problem...
Thanks that sounds good, i will check this out.

Tamuel: Actually, don't use Winlock, use stickykey_dll.dll by Blackjumper, it's in the code archives and it ROCKS!

@Grey Alien:

Hey, why hide praise away in a 337 post thread where no one will notice it... feel free to start a new thread telling everyone how wonderful my code is. {kidding}

... and just to keep it on topic - my dll was written in C++ Builder. I am fairly platform agnostic when it comes to coding - the best tool for getting the job done IMHO. The problem comes when you try to switch from one to the other after a long time immersed in a particular language - the coding tricks are fairly universal (Gang of Four anyone ?) but the individual syntax always trips me up.

I like OO methodology, which is why I will be giving Frank Taylor's course some serious attention.

his course is good for me, makes sense as it what I do anyway.