LightBulb Shines

While I am talking about the program, I guess this can also apply to the lil lightbulb above my noggin...

... I finally see the genius in this program, after looking at casually for a few days, and reading the post about setting up transparencies.

From what I gather, LB allows you to set up scenery by loading individual (that's the key, not a gigantic single level, but segments of the level) parts of a level (terrain for instance), lightmapping that part, adding another (a building maybe), applying the same lightmap to that part...

... then, after you've got the whole scene assembled (or maybe a subscene) then export it over to Blitz.

Hey... do I have it right? :)

Anyway, it looks pretty good... I've got a half done interior model that I've been testing the demo on



It is a collection of about a million different parts (hull, walls, floor, ceiling, furniture, bulkheads, lights, etc... the later not shown) that I bring into LB and apply the lighting to.

I am assuming that when done I can save the whole thing as a single b3d... right, wrong!!??

also, three questions...

(1) how's the DirectX export coming?
(2) transparent color... is there a whay to handle a single color in a texture to make it transparent?
(3) does everyhting import into LB at xyz 0,0,0 ?

Hey... I've looked at both of the latest software creations that have appeared recently... Quill3D and LightBulb... and I am really impressed...

... both show a lot from both the developers and from Blitz.

Quill may be a lil overkill for me, seeing as I only need a lightmapper that can use .X files, and in the long term may opt to get both, but right now I'm leaning towards the Bulb...

Now where'd she hide those credit cards... :)

--Mike

First off, thanks for the nice comments - makes it all worthwhile :)

LightBulb does NOT export the whole scene as a single .B3D. Why? Because this would not allow you to alter objects individually from within your engine.
Example :- You import your 'level' object and your 'door' objects and set them up within LB. If the whole scene got combined into one mesh, you wouldn't be able to open and shut the doors.
What LightBulb does instead is save the scene to it's own format (.LBL). This stores information about all the meshes INDIVIDUALLY. Then, using the provided 'LoadLightBulbLevel()' function you can import your levels EXACTLY as they appear in LightBulb, whilst maintaining access to each of the objects individually. This includes access to the UserFlag$() that each object can have that you can use to assign behaviours etc.
Check this example :
http://www.binary-people.com/downloads/lbexamplelevel.zip
that demostrates exactly what I'm talking about.

So to sum up that point, it's not one big .B3D that gets exported, but it's just as easy to load AND has MANY benefits.

To answer your other questions :
(1) I haven't looked at the DX export for a while because the call for it wasn't that great. Sorry.
(2) The transparent color is always 0,0,0 (Black). This is a Blitz limitation. However, you can set an entire texture to be alpha'd to any level.
(3) Meshes and lights always appear at the current camera position (so you usually need to move a bit to see them.

Thanks again for your kind words - much appreciated :)

when lightbulb lightmaps, does it take into account transparenscies in textures? for instance, if I have a building with a window that you can only see through because it is transparent, will light pass through the window?

I like the multiple file import/export idea though. Might get lightbulb in a while.... still have to think about it.

I'm afraid not, but there are ways of 'faking' it. It IS possible to turn off an individual objects shadow casting though.

side note: there is a forum for LB at www.binary-people.com

Personally, I like it when people post here 'cos it helps to spread the word. But any bugs should be reported in the LightBulb forum over at
http://www.binary-people.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi
because I might miss something if it's posted here. :)

I downloaded the lightbulb demo.

I found a huge problem with it tho - every object has its own lightmap! One level should have ONE lightmap - otherwise you are going to

a) run out of texture memory
b) your game is going to have the mother of all surface counts and have severe speed issues.

Lightmaps dont need to be hugely high res, and having one lightmap per object is insane!

Hope you sort that - looks like a nice idea otherwise, just unusable for a game in its present state.

Funny how it's always the People from Quill who feel the need to slate LightBulb.

Ravey, I know you're heavily involved in the Quill camp, but there's really no need to go bashing my product when you obviously have absolutely no idea what it is capable of.

To answer your a & b :
a) that's down to the individual programmers planning. LightBulb can make anything from 4x4 to 1024x1024 lightmaps depending on the lumel size YOU set. So make smaller lightmaps if you're worried about memory.
b) YOU could make your 'level' all one object if you wanted to. Then it would have ONE lightmap. The reason you can have multiple objects AND lightmap each object individually is so that things can be kept separate IF NECESSARY eg. you can have lightmapped pickups that are separate objects from your level. This also brings my UserFlag$ system into play, which allows you to set ANY behaviour for ANY object without having to code everything individually. This is something you CAN'T do with a single .B3D object.

Perhaps in the future you should read the manual before you start throwing accusations around, and describing thought out, pre-planned features as 'problems'.

And as for being 'unusable for games'...LOL.

Download the example 'game level' for a start :
http://www.binary-people.com/downloads/lbexamplelevel.zip

That was put together in half a day.

Then ask the people who are using LightBulb to make their games :
http://www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=21526

Then read this review by a Blitz user :
http://www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=22073

Then let me tell you that my own LightBulb-designed game is curently running at >60FPS with 30,000 polys on screen on a mid-range PC.

And if that doesn't convince you then you must have an alterior motive for posting.

I have gone out of my way *sooo* many times NOT to make LightBulb and Quill into rivals. They are different programs for different uses. I like Quill. It's VERY good at what it does. I even helped Birdie out when the demo was first released - I found a MAJOR bug and was sworn to secrecy. But when I see posts like this from the Quill camp.....it just makes me wonder why I bother.

*sigh*

Ah well. Make up your own minds.

Oh, and the next update of LightBulb includes 'twin' .x export as well, so that other engine developers can use it too.

see - not bashing :) said it looks like a nice idea.

Surface count is everything speed wise - im suggesting looking at a different method. Im not comparing it to Quill either - yes i am a big fan but i didnt mention that Quill has seperate objects u can attach parameters too also, and vertex shaded objects too if you want - it has max flexability but minimises the surfaces on export - obviously things u want to animate are left as being their own surface. Anyways, this wasnt meant to be a contest, merely an observation and a suggestion.

BTW - I find your "sworn to secrecy" thing a bit nasty, no point being sworn to secrecy and then hinting at it because you are upset - thats not cricket really is it :/

Anyways - to conclude, wasnt meant to be a bashing but just remember all the vis, portal and occlusion techniques are to gain the max speed - games need to have the absolite min surface count is all i am saying.

Hi,



Well Im not getting involved in any mud slinging matches but I do find that comment very hurtful especially seeing how it was a positive bug for the user not a negative one. You hinting to drop this "BIG" secret well that tells us a lot about asking you to keep something confidential in the future.

I think its silly to even try to compare Quill3d and Lightbulb. One is a full blown 3d production app and the other is a Lightmapping/Dropper utility. They could never be rivals.
I've tried the demo of lightbulb and it does a good job however I think it is quite expensive for what it does.

I would NEVER 'drop' that secret Birdie. Quill is amazing, and I respect all your hard work as a fellow developer and wouldn't want to ruin it. I was using it as an example of how I have been courteous, willing to help, and have never said ANYTHING bad about your product.
Can your people say the same?

I say again :- Quill is GOOD. LightBulb is GOOD. BUT THEY ARE NOT RIVALS.

Why though, has a thread that started off with a satisfied user of my program talking about how he likes it and all its merits turned into a debate about Quill? And not for the first time either.

Smiff (from the Quill camp) - which program out of Droplet and Decorator does your lightmapping? Just curious.

Anyway, doubtless this wont be the last post here, but just take into account that whatever is said is bound to be biased. Hopefully this wont get nasty though...

Its just business :)

I use my own light mapping routines based on 'YAL' - along with decorator and Droplet - as I said I can get the same results as Lightbulb but for free.

I'm not from the "Quill3d camp" as you assume - I'm just a user and I think its a very good product and tremendous VALUE nothing else.

Lightbulb cost £20 - that represents 50% the cost of Quill3d but it doesn't have 50% of the features not even 10% or even 5% - how does that represent value for money.
Everytime someone mentions lightmapping in any post up you pop with 'Get Lightbulb !" - you never mention its price in any of your posts and you never mention that you have to use a proprietary file format instead of making proper use of the .b3d file format and you never mention that you can't actually create anything with Lightbulb you are dependant on Maplet which in its current state is not suited to producing decent levels.

£20 for a utility based on free code from the archives ! A bit steep if you ask me !

Okay I'm independant here, I don't pimp quill or anything.

Lightbulb simply needs surface optimise export option. This will merge as many surfaces as possible and save it as a single B3D file. This IS technically possible and I hope you will consider it.

less surfaces = more speed
single B3D = users need no custom code

Also: no more arguments.

@Rob
If you have your level as one single object there will only be one lightmap. Two objects=two lightmaps. 3=3. It's down to YOU to decide how to use it.

@Smiff - why are you using 3 different programs just to do your lightmapping when you have all these thousands of features in Quill that you keep banging on about? And come to think of it, why would Ravey have downloaded the demo of LightBulb in the first place if Quill is so amazing. Oh, here's why :
http://invisionfree.com/forums/Quill3D/index.php?showtopic=161
LOL.
Also, since when have 'cost' and 'value' been benchmarked by Quill? Just because they slapped a £40 tag on it, are we supposed to judge all other programs value by this 'holy-grail' figure (if so then 3DSMax is a bit of a rip-off!). If you took the time to THINK about what you're saying, you might remember that LightBulb came out MONTHS BEFORE Quill.
Besides which, £20 is equivelant to roughly one trip to the pub, or half a game, or 3 pizzas. It is NOT a lot of money, and if you think it is you've probably picked the wrong business matey.
Oh, and you're wrong about Maplet too. LightBulb is NOT dependant on Maplet. You can use any modeller that can export .3ds, .x, or .b3d, so Milkshape, 3DS, LightWave, SoftImage, etc. and yes, even Quill could be used (which is probably just as well because the lightmapping in Quill is obviously sub-standard). LightBulb is NOT a 3D modeller, and I've never said that. There are plenty of 3D modellers out there already - but not many lightmappers.

Shock horror! I might want to sell my own program! What's slightly more worrying is that every time somebody says something good about LightBulb (eg. this thread) you and Ravey pop up with all kinds of accusations and start pimping Quill.

LOL. SOOO not true. You can actually see me explaining this on the second post of this very thread! You really are clutching at straws now aren't you. I've mentioned it COUNTLESS times, and its all in the manual (oh yeah, my demo actually COMES WITH A MANUAL - unlike the almighty Quill!). You see, I did that so that people would know HOW TO USE IT.
Plus, the loader is already written for you (again, it comes with the demo), and its as simple as LoadMesh().

I'm never going to convince you - you've dug yourself into a corner, but I think its sick that you seem to feel the need to try to put people off buying a program you know nothing about, because you own another program that you see as some kind of rival. Go MAKE something with Quill, instead of hanging around here trying to damage my interests.

I'll let LightBulb speak for itself.

Quote that began this thread:

i don't see the problem with lightbulb. if skitchy is putting in the option to have as many or as little lightmaps as you want and other users have said how good it is, then the ppl who are having problems with it probably aren't using it correctly. if you want to buy it cool, if you don't wanna, don't buy it. there's no need to try and discourage others from buying it. i think quill and light bulb are both good products.

Hey skitchy now u getting nasty mate aint ya.

Now then - while you are in the accusing mood - since I pop up everytime someone says something about lightbulb - could you show me a couple of examples of me doing this?

As to why I downloaded it - curiosity - I'm allowed to download demos am I not?

Quill3D has hundreds of features and a lightmapper that was actually written by the author of it. Sure it has had a couple of bugs like every other large app - but you havent even seen the update thats coming, more features than you can shake a smelly sock at, and more lightmapping and light options then I have ever seen.

Anyways, as I have already said before all your nasty business, I liked your app and was concerned about the surface count - couldnt you just take that on the chin and say "thanks for the input" or something? If I had said "oi this is crap" then fair enough, but i didnt.

Hey... it would be a shame for you guys to start goin at it... come on now...

I hope that both camps are above this sorta thing...

Pleeeeease...

I've looked at both programs... and they are both really good examples of how far some really talented developers can push Blitz to come up with some professional, really useable applications.

There is a lot of functionality overlap, but each program approaches it in a different way, making each program unique enough as to not actually coming in direct conflict with each other.

You guys are better than this... I would hate to see this go degenerate any farter...

--Mike

@Red Oktober - Sorry, but I have to make a stand on this one, or people are going to start believing Raveys lies.

@Ravey -
Oh, so your use of the words 'huge problem', 'unusable' and 'insane' weren't at all meant to be emotive and try to put people off?

You know fully well what your alterior motives were for posting here as do I (and anybody else with a modicum of sense).

And again, yet more Quill pimpage on the last post - it never ends!

If you want to pimp Quill, go start a Quill thread.


MY nasty business? Well, if you start knocking my (perfectly decent) program for no good reason, I'm going to retaliate. Your criticisms either UNTRUE, or merely your opinion dressed up to sound like technical fact.

You didnt answer my question did you.

And my opinions ARE fact. Telling people to make a level into one mesh is a cop out, just add the feature to allow all meshes to share a part of one lightmap and you have a winner. Thats all i was saying - take a read of my first post.

And - please answer the accusations you made before that i requested :)

Ravey said :

My word Ravey. Can you hear yourself?


Opinion. Not fact. One level can have as many lightmaps as you choose. And using your method of one lightmap on a large level with lots of 'parts' is going to lead to some pretty awful looking lightmapping. Multiple meshes sharing one <=1024x1024 texture is going to lose too much lumel resolution.


Doesn't Quill do that? So it's a cop out eh? Your words not mine.


I did. Read my last post. Your comments were just designed to make LB sound bad - nothing more.

Anyhow, this is now getting too personal, so I'm out.

I hope anybody reading will have the common sense to try the demo of LightBulb before believing anything else that will undoubtedly get posted after I leave.

http://www.binary-people.com/downloads/lightbulbdemo.exe

And here's those other links again :

Download the example 'game level' :
www.binary-people.com/downloads/lbexamplelevel.zip

Ask the people who are using LightBulb to make their games :
www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=21526

Read this review by a Blitz user :
www.blitzbasic.com/bbs/posts.php?topic=22073

It's then up to you if you want to believe all those people and your own eyes,
or Ravey.

Remember that LightBulb can deliver any number of lightmaps from 0 upwards - it's all down to how you CHOOSE to use it.

And just remember the name Red gave this thread :-


:)

Okay I think this thread has probably been flogged enough...
I wouldn't mind a commercial forum for people like you.

Sorry didn't realise that this was a marketplace - I was under the mistaken illusion that it was a forum to discuss 3d Graphics.

No Quill doesnt do that, I wont go any further tho.

Yes it has got personal. YOU made it that way, then decided to leave it after having your last say - like ya style (not).

C'mon now...no need for the arguments. Both Lightbulb and Quill3D are excellent programs in their own right...let's leave it at that.

Now kiss and make up or else I'll lock this thread ;)

Im not kissing anyone, although give me a few more stella's and you never know
lol

xxxxxxxxx !

OI Smiff I never new you cared ;)

lol - I'm not fussy ! ;)

Okay. This somehow got out of hand really quickly didn't it? Never mind - no harm done.

I wont be kissing anybody though :)

How about a hand-shake and a virtual beer :
[beer]BEER[/beer]

:)

mmmmm beer

cheers! :)

I'll drink to that ! :)

Only Blitz lightmapper that doesn't split meshes up into 3 vertices per triangle! (that I am aware of) I will admit CS 2.08 is behind in the light options, but CS3 will own you!

(This is really meant as friendly competition. Let's face it, the Blitz market isn't exactly lucrative.)

On another note, have you guys considered a second, additive lightmap where really bright lights wash out textures to pure white? It looks great in UT2003, and you can use the same mapping coords as the multiplicative lightmap.

tada!:

I just thought of something, how about a single b3d export function, but all the objects are children. Then you can still change them?

Oh man how I wish Blitz took a little more advantage of hardware. My Geforce2 can do 3 textures in a pass, but Blitz will double your polygon count if you try more than two textures.

Correction - your Geforce2 can do 3 textures in a pass under DirectX 7!

I want 3 inna bed multisexturing gooooodness!

Your GeForce 2 won't do that, neither will DirectX 9. I suggest alcohol and a social setting.

I love you long time.

Wanna screw?

Not exactly.

What did you think I was offering?

S&M ?

Sex & Marrige? I don't marry fat old men!